Grisman Interview

[chirorehab]

Check this out: David Grisman Interview on Jambands.com (http://www.jambands.com/Features/content_2004_02_28.08.phtml)

I wish he was asked about the tape covering the Gibson logo!

Eric

[Tbone]

Wow, he really goes off at the end on the music business. GOod for him. I agreed 110%.

[Spruce]

Yeah, especially this little exchange about the Faithful Fed...urrrr, Grateful Dead:

"M.S.: #Right, Sometimes Jerry's electric playing was all over the place. I think once in an interview Mickey Hart said something like Jerry hits so many bad notes but when he hits it right he is amazing.

D.G.: Well he shouldn't talk. If he'd had notes attached to them drums he wouldn't even have been in the category. I personally don't think any of them guys [the Grateful Dead] are in Jerry's league at all. They ought to be very grateful. I don't think any one of them would have made it without Jerry, perhaps with the exception of Phil.

M.S.: #Jerry had such a wide musical vocabulary....

D.G. Don't even get me started. They do him a big disservice. They dump on him a lot. They ought to be grateful. He gave them a life."

The Dawg nailed that one, too.....

[LeftCoastMark]

Sometimes I enjoy that guys playing a little bit, but, man, so negative, dark and arrogant. I won't be putting any pennies in his pocket anytime soon. And I'll keep my opinions of the DGQ to myself.

[Crowder]

I agree with the basic premise of his arguments, but I think there's some added bitterness in what he's saying that you might only feel if you were in his shoes. I mean, he can play circles around most well-known musicians, probably on their own instrument (not mandolin), and yet he's not exactly a household name or rich by any pop musician's standards. I think to write off an entire generation of musicians because of what they watched on TV growing up is exactly like saying people are stupid based on the color of their skin. We may agree with his conclusions may be right, but how he says he got there bothers me some.

[LeftCoastMark]

The Dead were a band. Like all bands, every individual had a different level of talent. But all were collaborators, and the sum was greater than the parts. I'm no great fan of the GD, but they sure had a lot of soul.

Grisman can play circles around lots of players, sure, but he's got no soul. It's all pompous, and flash and smoke and mirrors.

Give me a second tier, but soulful, player anyday over that "Dawg" crap.

[LeftCoastMark]

And if it hadn't been for Jerry Garcia, Grisman would be a marginal nobody as well. Garcia gave him a life as well.

[sunburst]

I just read the interview. Frankly, after reading the posts here first, I was expecting him to really go off on the music industry. I thought he was right on the mark, and if he was bitter he would have really cut loose.
For a while I've been saying "I don't know why anyone wants to be a professional musician and have to deal with the music industry". I know it's because some people are driven and consumed with music, and it's the only logical choice for them, but for others the industry only stifles their creativity and turns them into just another pop star or whatever. Music can be plenty rewarding without being a pro, so why subject yourself to the industry?

Anyway, I've been wondering why I'm a "professional" luthier these days, maybe it would be more fun again if it was a hobby and I had a real job. Maybe that makes me a little more sensitive...oh well, back to sanding.....

You know what....i can understand that folks could be offended by what Grisman says in that interview. The thing is...in our current culture everyone is so intent on being "PC" and being viewed thru the "community lense" that we have lost something. i for one respect what Grisman said. Its likely dead on but even if its just completely off base i say let it fly. Have an original idea..... Is it "dark"? Maybe. Its honest and true for him. We have lost "alot" of originality in ourselves...not just musically. A big piece of that is how advanced communication systems are. The world is very, very small these days due to T.V. radio, internet etc....About a month or so ago i had a builder friend express his feelings to me in a way that really hurt. Hit me like a ton of bricks. It still stings and our relationship has been changed probably forever but i would prefer for him to voice his honest feelings than to just go thru the motions and be disingenious. Respect is a value we all agree upon but genius usually comes from shared differences not similarities...sorry for the ramble...i'll get down from the soap box now.

[J. Mark Lane]

Well, I read the interview. I think he was being rather restrained. The only thing that causes me a little discomfort in what he is saying is his general position that there is not any "real" or "great" music being made today. He knows better, I think. And I think that's not what he really meant to say. There is great music being made today, and Grisman knows it. It's just not in the mainstream, not on the big labels, not on the radios etc.

Hey, did you notice you can't even buy a Simon Mayor CD from amazon? .... But you can buy one. If you know where to look. Case in point.

Great interview, great man, great musician.

For anyone who really believes Grisman didn't have a major influence on mando music or new acoustic music or today's younger musicians just doesn't have a leg to stand on. Grisman has buckets of soul and he truly is "the" original melodic/harmonic mandolin composer. Grisman made the mandolin mainstream. His "presence" is a part of the appeal. Mysterious...gypsy, hippy....i love the Dawg man!

[bflat]

i find it refreshing for someone to say what they think and know what they're talking about at the same time. there's too much PC %#$# mumblespeak and apologizing going on. DG tells it like it is.

[spud]

Wow I think i'm depressed!....

and I probably should put my mando away,and buy a lap dulcimer!

Grisman is still the stuff...alot of people would love to have a day in the life with him.....I would!
He put's his pant's on everyday just like everyone else (excepting swamis,and krsna's)....
But he has given us stuff that I can get an idea of what he's doing ,BUT he IS a butload better than I ever will be , and he is still creating on a daily/hourly bases....
I thought it was a good enterview....just got a little dark at the end!!!.......

Now I'm going to go back to my average,repetitive,mundane,aspiring
but lacking pickin!

------------------
Boyd

I was reading the posts before I read the Dawgs interview. I was figuring O lord what did David say ..... I read the interview and how anybody can be offended by that is just unbelievable.. Dang.

David is one of the few players that I can honestly say plays with 100 percent soul.
The Music business is a joke now days they are all copy cat acts. 90 % of the people on the charts can get their butts kicked by people on the streets who can never make it because of their look or other things that have nothing to do with their musical abilities. Radio . Oh don't make me go there. People do not control what they want to hear on the radio we are spoonfeed what record execs want us to hear.

Of course this is my opinion and hope it has not offended anybody in the BIZ..

The Dawg is tops in my book

[bflat]

i also like his comment about mando being used for "texture" in 80's rock, how many current country songs have a mando tinkling in the background...........

[mandocrustacean]

I agree with David too. Great music derives from strong feelings, perhaps from suffering, perhaps from elation. I can't claim to be doing anything original, I just play traditional songs because I like them.
The entertainment industry is part and parcel of the whole corporate structure that controls our lives by telling us what to think and what to value. Sometimes I wonder if another Great Depression might not do us some good. My grandfather grew up during the depression (he died last week) and he had a work ethic and philosophy of life that is worth emulating. Many people from that generation shared the same qualities. I find very few people in this generation worth emulating and it disturbs me to see my students emulating Fi'ty Cent and Eminem and Brittany Spears. Call me negative but I'm going to say it anyway, our overall culture is crap. But let us be thankful for the Mandolin Cafe and our own little oasis of taste and refinement in a desert of empty entertainment. You can call me arrogant too, I don't mind.:D

[Tom C]

It seems Grisman likes "The firsts". Whoever invents a new style of music.

[Crowder]

I can tell I'm in going to be in the minority here, but let's get real. Saying that someone is a crappy musician or has nothing to offer just because they watched Sesame Street when they were growing up is an idiotic statement by any standard. As I posted earlier, it's akin to racial profiling. Grisman may think that he is a 'real' musician, but I can't see how he's exactly 'suffered' for his art. The record shows that he went to college, got to meet and record a lot of his idols at a young age, and has made a living playing exactly the music of his own choosing for over thirty years. That ain't exactly a Bessie Smith story in the making, folks. He may think that there are no real musicians growing up today, but he needs to realize that Bill Monroe thought exact same thing about his nappy behind thirty years ago. Was Bill right? No. Is Grisman? No. I think it's conceited and wrong-headed, and especially surprising coming from someone who has lived in Northern California so long. I thought that was a more open and accepting scene.

I do agree with him about the Dead, those guys are all totally overrated. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Crowder]

And another thing....if Grisman is so all-fired creative, why does he keep recording the same 10 songs over and over with different incarnations of his band? Baffles me. Maybe that's why the "Dawg Music" movement is still about 200 people strong, worldwide.

[mandocrustacean]

I think his overall point could have been articulated better which is that the music industry (part of the entertainment industry) does not value quality so much as it values marketability. Let the media giants consolidate and homogenize. People who love authentic music in its various forms will continue to create. We'll know hell has frozen over when they produce a show called "American Picker" and they get Grisman to be one of the judges.:D

[sunburst]

Crowder,
I didn't read it that way. What I heard was....the inovators from the time before the mass media were more isolated from the rest of everything so their inovations were less influenced by the main stream. I didn't read it as a criticism of Winton Marsalis or Alison Krouse, but as a statement of how difficult it is to be unique while in a constant wash of commercial music. I thought Sesame Street was just a metaphor.

( I suppose a spell checker on the cafe would be too much to ask http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Scott Tichenor]

No holds barred?

Pretty tame interview. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and he certainly has his. I actually agree with most of what he said. If you've been in a few bands and seen the ugly side of the music business then I expect you'll have your own strong opinions as well.

Quick show of hands: how many of you will raise you hands for a similar no holds barred interview so we can critique your opinions?!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[jessboo]

Good interview. I always did think theres more energy on the outer fringes of the music business then what was coming out of the major recording hubs. So go a head critique my opinion. Just don't make fun of my mandolin playing. I already know it's bad! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Xena]

hee. I would respect his opinions a lot more if he didn't ALSO complain about not getting to be on tv, not being able to get played on the radio...

So, let's see, I guess the beef he has with the mass entertainment media.... is that HE isn't part of it.

hee.

[jim simpson]

David does get to be heard every week at the beginning and end of Car Talk on public radio (Dawgy Mountian Breakdown).

[ethanopia]

interesting interview.

I sort of agree with him in terms of originality.

If I want to hear Bluegrass bring on the flatt and scruggs or Monroe if I want to hear jazz bring on the Trane or Miles. Heck all this all this new stuff.

But on the other hand what if Coltrane would have said "aw man I just like listening to Bird man, I don't need to play sax, I'm not doing anything Bird didn't do twenty years ago"

What if Jaco said "man I'm just a Mingus wana be I don't need to play the bass"

[MikeB]

This thread barely caught my interest, but I read on anyway. #Then I read the interview. #I'm wondering if I read the same one everyone else read. #

DGs comments seemed honest, heartfelt, and interesting to me. #His opinions are his, what can you say? #Certainly his insights about our music culture are as relevant as anyone's, and his views on the music business can't exactly be shrugged off, given his experience and success.

I have little to add about his talent, his interviews, or anyone else's, but I certainly felt there was some resonance in his allusions to something about music--as it was--being lost to us. #

There must have been a time in history--before recording became possible--when we placed a very different, if not higher value on music performance. #Afterall, each event would have been pretty much one-of a-kind, here and gone, just like live music is today, never mind all the technical production that has been added. #

We are bombared daily with "best" music the recording industry can bring us. #It is at our fingertips, in our headsets (well, our kids' #headsets, not mine), in our cars, in the stores. #They make commercials out of good tunes that are no longer selling as just good tunes. #

And, not surprisingly, we seem to value that music less. #"Great" music is often our background noise. #We turn it on or off--or ignore it--with total indifference. #The real downside to that, in MY opinion, is that it carries over to the live performance as well. #Every performing musician out there (especially amateurs and minor professionals) had better be prepared to be ignored--and talked over--during the performance, because that is what people do, most often. #It's only music, afterall. #We can always buy the CD....if somebody thinks it will sell.

I guess I wandered a bit there....sorry.

[John Rosett]

well, i'm totally with the dawg here.
i think that david grisman has insights into the music industry that few if any mandolin players have. he's had a major label recording contract, worked with alot of big names, and he has a 30+ year perspective of how the "music industry" has changed.
like frank zappa, grisman has realized that the only way that he can keep his musical vision before the public (and make a living), is to control the means of production and distribution. there was an op/ed article that ran in many newspapers a week or so ago about the music industry written by don henley. try and find it, it's very well written and informative piece.
xena- i don't think grisman is so much mad that he's not getting radio and tv time, i think that it's more frustration with the whole system that is the music industry. if you want to "make it" in music (commercial radio, national distribution, major record label, etc), you have to be prepared to be on american idol.
i also find it refreshing to hear someone of grisman's stature just "tell it like it is", without worrying so much about stepping on someone else's toes. i think everyone is just a little too polite anymore.
so that's my $.02 on the subject. scott- i'll stand for the interview, but i doubt that most people would want to read it, as i am twice as crusty as the dawg, but almost half as talented....
john

[ethanopia]

I sorta think it is the easy way out, to say things like,

"Well things were better back then..."

when they weren't. really Monroe used to tie his Instruments to the top of a car and drive all night to get to a gig. Then he would play two or sometimes three shows in a row, he wouldn't fly in play for an hour for 10,000 people then jet back home. This is an amazing time for music.

So generalizing about how the music world is going to hell in a hand basket is just so over done. I'm sick of people (critics,muscians and others) complaining. We live in a an awesome time, where we can have great lives and play great music. Even if it has been done before I'm all for it, just keep tearing it up!

Lets keep this stuff alive not just rotting on the shelves of the archives, as much as Monroe used to say "invent your own genre" in the end he was ecstactic that people were taking his music to new levels. So I hope Dawg appreciates when thirty years from now someone rips into EMD and thinks of him.

[jlb]

We should applaud Grisman for speaking his mind, which too many people seemed scared to do, even if we disagree with what he's saying.

I personally appreciate many of his comments, as I too have observed an upward trend in "generic" sounding music. The Sesame Street thing may have been a little much, but we live in America where a man can speak his mind (can't he?).

All I know is your typical large bluegrass festival now puts on a lot of acts that don't sound half-different from whatever Nashville's "flavor of the week" pop-country artist is pumping through CMT.

But there are also some really cool, innovative acts as well. Are they on network TV or mainstream radio? Well, not my definitions of cool, innovative acts. Thank God for public radio and, less often, public TV, and independent labels like Acoustic Disc.

[J. Mark Lane]

Nice comments, MikeB. The role of art (and music) in culture has been a lifelong interest of mine. And I agree, the role of music in our society has changed dramatically in the recent years. It didn't used to be a "background event" to life. It used to me more of a focusing point. And when it was more integrated into our lives and cultures, it didn't have to be so "clean" and homogenous. Like Dawg, I tend to enjoy the older stuff more.

However -- and this is an idea that I perhaps belabor -- I do believe we are currently seeing a resurgence of music in our culture(s). I credit the Internet and other digital media as creating the vehicle for it. The world has become much smaller. It is possible for "communities" to emerge in a completely new form, and in a "space" that never even existed before. Artists who were previously limited to their small town, or even their living room, can now be seen and heard throughout the world, with very little cost or effort. I really think this is a rennaisance of sorts, opening up the world to almost unlimited creative efforts.

So I think perhaps Dawg's "dark comments" (true as they are) were not directed at the positive things that are happening, but more at the reason why those things must happen.

There's often a tendency, particularly among the "counter culture" types and the various people who emerged from that kind of thinking (myself included) to "think critically," in the sense of having a damning theory or methodology for understanding contemporary capitalist society. Trust me, I've been there (very there). It's intellectually tempting and emotionally satisfying to place oneself in that position. And there is much truth in what is said from there. But it's (thankfully) never that simple.

I recall Herbert Marcuse's work, "One Dimensional Man," being a sort of rallying point for the "intellectual" component of the "critical thinking" left in the 1960's. But even Marcuse came to see, later in his life, that he had been mistaken. The notion that any social, cultural or economic system can ultimately restrain the human spirit is ... well, wrong. For Marcuse, I think the countering position was stated in his "Eros and Civilization." But for us, perhaps, the same notion could be found in the simple fact that there is now music being made and shared, among people with no geographic or other barriers, right here on this Board.

I think that would bring a smile even to the Dawg's face.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[cutbait2]

the sesame street comments were meant (i think) to reflect what the environment can mean to the creative process, blues coming of the backs streets of memphis in the 20's and 30's would be something quite different from that created by a suburban middle class kid in the 80's. same as old time, those people were living the tunes, not recreating a facsimile of for middle class consumption, in some ways BG didn't really take off until groups like the seldom scene polished it up for urban consumption.whens the last time you bought a Wade Mainer cd? or a John Hurt? good comments by Grisman, food for a much larger discussion, lots of good reading on the subject, evolution of the recording industry, genres etc available. don't try to read more into dawgs comments than he meant.

[Jim M.]

So, let's see, I guess the beef he has with the mass entertainment media.... is that HE isn't part of it.


Heck, my beef with the mass entertainment media is that Grisman doesn't get played but all that soulless pap churned out by the country, r & r, r & b, flavors of the day do get played. Can you believe that our country is more interested in those 2-bit talents from American Idol than in Grisman, Mike Marshall, Mike Compton, et al?

[ethanopia]

I find the "music as backround" comments interesting becasue I think it is the exact opposite. Sure you get people talking over your tunes at bars, when you play in a venue like that it is unavoidable, but there are other venues available. I could list a bazillion times I've seen a show and been able to hear a pin drop in the audience with more than a couple hundred people sitting in awe.

Whats more is that music actually used to be the backround to dancing. Old Time music came the dances when the musicians were just there to provide the tunes for dancing. You didn't go to a "concert" to just sit there and watch musicians play, you went to a "dance", so you could dance.
The music actualliy was intergral in the experience but it was as much about dancing as it was about the music. It was't performance, it was intereaction.

It wasn't until Monroe and those fellas brought a firery performance aspect with solos etc that people started to enjoy just listening to the music and not dancing.

and oh yeah interesting thoughts there Mark on the "new spaces" I like that...

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

grisman changed the mandolin-period. If it wasn't for him, all of us probably wouldn't be here on this websight-beleive it. He is an originator of a new style of music and truly made the mandolin OK for other kinds of music. When the first DGQ albums came out he was on top of the JAZZ charts-especially with the Stephane grapelli stuff. He had a great carreer before Garcia and he would have continued to make it-maybe without a record label-but how many greats really have record labels anyway. His playing is 100% soul. He is not a technician. He doesn't really have technique to speak of -not really. He plays what he feels. He also puts everything he has into his art, and the art of others he believes in. He is the best and this article is 100% on from someone who lived it, played it, wrote it and believes it. Greats are made by talent, commitment, and PERSONALITY. Say what you feel and mean what you say.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Classical music was listened to, with fiery playing, long before people were just dancing to old time music. Both aspects have been around for awhile. Not many danced to Paganini, that sat in awe of his technical prowess. By the way classical players make the jack-Itzak Pearlman gets about $90,000 a concert. Mark o'conner gets 15,000 for a solo performance of his classical pieces. pretty amazing.

[Christopher Howard-Williams]

Very interesting thread. I liked the interview. Here in France I think it is even harder to get heard. There is only mainstream; marginal music has no outlet. We live our Bluegrass existence in a parallel world! Which is fine by me because they leave us alone!!
I think the big illustration of that was a sticker I saw on a CD in a store that said "As seen on TV". Yes, that's right as "seen" for a something you listen to!! I guess that's what DG meant about buying your way into TV.

[ethanopia]

Mike I get your point and you are right listening to music has surely been around a while. I was just trying to reinforce the point that the attitude of

"the world is going to hell in a hand basket"

has always bothered me. People in general love to say it was sooooo much better back in the day. Instead of focusing theier efforts on moving ahead.

It sure seems like Dawg appreciates moving forward but to say somehting "Oh I don't like any of that new stuff" sounds a lot like ole Bill :-)

[Jeff]

Here is my problem with the interview,

It seems to me that everytime bluegrass or old time music seems to get a second of poularity and notorieyty, some traditionalist will complain that "bluegrass is going mainstream and isn't what it used to be!" But then alot of these same musicians hate the fact that popular music "sucks." (as evidenced by Grismans complaint that he isn't in the mainstream.) I think the acoustic music scene as a whole needs to accept the fact that mainstrem culture will not cling to this form of music, and as a matter of fact, should embrace this "secret fishing hole" that nobody else knows about it.

And considering that David Grisman is from New Jersye but attacking yonder mountain for not being "original" is quite a pompous statement in my opinion. Did he learn "that high and lonesome soound" roaming the wasteland of the meadowlands?

He needs to get over himself. I agree with is statement that the music industry kind off tells people what to like, bt thats not going to change. And lets face it, while I really enjoy dawg music, it's not half as influential as Grisman would like to think it is.

sorry about the typos, I have a big delay on my internet connection!!!

[Michael H Geimer]

Great Interview. I'm glad I read it first before sifting through this thread!

I'm not put off by the Dawg's bitterness. After all, it's an interview, he's just talking - and being recorded. To Scott's point, how'd you like to answer for all your 'off the cuff' remarks? "No thank you", is what I'd say. Let's cut him some slack to better hear his point.

I think he's pointing out something that I'm only just starting to see clearly myself. Sunburst, J. Mark Lane, and MikeB see it too, I think.

Broadcast media has shifted our focus to the point where music is viewed first as a product - a CD, a single, a video, etc. - and only second as something being created by a real person! We see simliar confusion in the tabloids, where we freely discuss the lives and happenings of celebrities whom we'll likely never meet. It is quite odd.

It took me while to realize that when the table conversations around the pub start getting loud and lively, it actually means we're playing well! We have been fed so much sound that comes out of speakers, that we no longer realize the sound really comes from actual people playing instruments. I saw it happen just last week at a Del McCoury show, where the band could clearly hear the audience talking 'amongst themselves' ... completely oblivious to their rudeness, as though it were inconceivable that the band might be hearing it too, or that it might afftect them personally! I was close enough to see that they could, in fact, hear it all themselves. Most Weird.

Ultimately, I think that music is a lot like bread. It exists in most every cultural the world over, and performs a vital role in the community - food of course, being more vital. Also, like bread, music doesn't keep so well when it's packaged up for mass distribution ... it's the fresh stuff that usually tastes better.

- Benignus

FWIW: I watched a ton of Sesame Street while growing up in the suburbs. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mandobsessed]

To me Grisman wan't sayint that there was no talent there. He was saying that the structure of the record/entertainment industry prevents truly great music from being heard. Unless the big companies are pushing you you aren't going anywhere fast.

With technology anyone can produce a great sounding record (technically at least) but without promotion by big $$ it is very difficult.

Continuing the bread analogy. Good music is like a whole grain bread with lots of nuts. Tastes better and bette for you but how many people still buy Wonder Bread?

[JDARTGOD]

[QUOTE]A lot of the music that is coming out today is just regurgitation or somebody's attempt at trying to sell a record. You can hear that. When the main purpose is just to sell a record, unfortunately that has permeated the music. Alison Krauss, very talented but to me that is pop music


[QUOTE]Most bands are just too aware of now we're making our DVD. When the great music was being made that didn't exist.


http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif???


Let me go out and burn my "Grateful Dawg" DVD.

Hey Dawg......."Hold on, we're strummin'... "


I see what the man is sayin', but I'm a little territorial over AKUS w/Jerry Douglas. Seems they're in EVERYONE"S crosshairs for doing (unorthodox) gigs and getting exposure like NO OTHER Bluegrass Band has before them.

It's all good; no use screamin' from the rafters anymore.

[Michael H Geimer]

JDARTGOD, I'll offer a companion quote from DG, that seems related .. IMO, at least.

"In old-time music there is no one style. Through the years the record companies started noticing that ‘this' sold real big, and it was play like that. Can you give me another ‘that.' As soon as somebody had a hit immediately there'd be someone covering it or trying to imitate it. So the whole purpose of music got turned around to we are going to play the kind of music that sells records, what is that? Nobody knows what that is. "

' That ' would be Pop music, the way I read it. So, AKUS aren't awful musicians - not at all, but because those records are built for comercial release ... it ultimately becomes pop. I don't see it as a blanket condemnation of anyone who makes a CD, or DVD. Instead, I read it all as an observation about how market forces have shifted the focus of music. Of course ... I'm not DG, so I could certainly be way off here in my interpretation.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Someone was trying to comparethe origiality of David Grisman to the origiality of Yonder Mountain String Band. Give me a freakin break. If Grisman only played that High Lonesome Bgrass sound then OK, maybe there would be an argument. However, he came up with an original kind of music-maybe it isn't extremely popular-i'll give you that. Yes Yonder is selling out shows like crazy and is finding seriuos popularity-as far as bluegrass goes. However, nothing yonder mtn stringband has done, will do, will be original like dawg music. Dawg music is way above those guys heads-I've seen them play. They have years to go before they are at the level of player of Grisman, or any of his peers. They may never reach that level-who knows

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

In general, real players don't listen to Yonder Mtn. Real players listen to the grisman, rice, Scruggs, etc...

[jlb]

I see what the man is sayin', but I'm a little territorial over AKUS w/Jerry Douglas. Seems they're in EVERYONE"S crosshairs for doing (unorthodox) gigs and getting exposure like NO OTHER Bluegrass Band has before them.

I think the point Grisman was making, at least what I took out of it, was that AKUS is basically a pop country act that does an occasional bluegrass tune. I can't argue, as honestly that's what they sound like to me.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Let me say that in my earlier post, "real" isn't the right word and I apologize in advance for that. I should have said the more advanced players.

[mandofiddle]

However, he came up with an original kind of music-maybe it isn't extremely popular-i'll give you that.
Isn't Dawg music basically just jazz with different instrumentation? How is that completely original? Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Grisman's music, and he is a huge influence on my playing. I think the term "original" might be better implied as far as how Grisman translates the music. He writes some good original music, but its still jazz with different instrumentation. Or Klezmer with different instrumentation. Or a combination of multiple styles... etc...

I'll give you the fact that he's heads above YMSB as far as the level of players they are. As far as originality is concerned, you have to compare and contrast what they're doing with the music. They're both doing similar things as far as merging styles. They're both writing music thats in a similar vein to whats been done before. It's just that David is a lot better at it IMHO...

Has Alison Krauss ever said she selects songs and arrangements based on what she thinks will sell? #Interviews that I read a few years ago indicated that if selling records was her primary goal she would have left Rounder a long time ago.

My experience is that it is a very risky thing to interpret someone else's motives. #It could be that she is just making recordings that reflect a varied musical taste. #She could be playing stuff she hates to try to sell records. #There could be overlap.

[JDARTGOD]

[QUOTE]AKUS is basically a pop country act that does an occasional bluegrass tune. I can't argue, as honestly that's what they sound like to me.


jlb,

I can give you that one if you're talking about her last 2 or 3 CDs or have only seen her on some CMT or major network specials.

But if you own everything she's recorded, since that first one back in 1986 when she was 16 years old, "Too Late to Cry", and all the other's in between, up to and including the recent "Live", you'll see that you're statement is really more than a little unfair. But it's your opinion, and you're certainly entitled to it.

[thistle3585]

What gets me about the interview, which I see happen with other artists, is that Grisman was given the opportunity to talk about his work, his projects, his approach to music etc. but instead chose to bash a few people along the way. Those remarks will carry much more weight than anything else that he said; at least in MY eyes.
What I will remember most from this interview wasn't about his music, but his disdain for other musicians, and unfortunately that is what I remember from the last interview I read. Grisman is a truly talented musician, but he should at least show some respect for other musicians even if he thinks they are hacks. It makes him look like a jerk.

[ethanopia]

you know Grisman did a TV show with Muleskinner I think when Monroe couldn't show up, maybe he is talking more about how there used to avenues and connections for bluegras folks to get on tv but those have dried up and now are all locked up by heavy money crunching coprperations....just a thought.

[Michael H Geimer]

JDARTGOD,
Good point about taking a look at Alison's overall career. Myself, I'll take her stuff with or without Union Station over the Dawg's stuff anyday of the week! I am a fan. Also FWIW, #I'm not really a fan of DG's music, just doesn't reach me.

But, one could look at Alison's career as a practical example of commercial pressure at work. While I don't think anyone could assert that she's any sort of Gold-digger, nevertheless her music style has shifted as her audience has grown and evolved.

I see it as the Invisble Hand of commerce at work, steering her work towards more media friendly material ... rather than some cliched plan 'sell-out' - concocted in a smoky back room by some cigar wielding A&R guy named Mr. Big. But, I also want to respect the earier cautionary post about acribing motives to people we don't know at all.

- Benig

[mandofiddle]

Being,
The reason for her musical changes might also have been her growing up herself, seeing as how she started so young. Heck, I've only been playing mando for about 7 years or so, and I can tell you my musical "evolution" has changed dramatically. Mr. Big didn't tell me what to do http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Joe Parker]

Grisman has no soul?! What are you-DEAF!? Maybe you think that because he plays melodies you can't comprehend,double stops that have you stumped,or maybe it's because he doesn't run pentatonic scales into the ground like some of the "good" players and can really play in minor keys?!Or could it be that you're just feeling confident in your own musical ability and any day now your new album will hit the stands? We need a new topic category for what ever is the mandolin equivelent of armchair quarterback,backseat driver,a guy in a diner etc.. seriously-some of you folks crack me up. When you look at his career as a body of work I think you will find he has covered more territory and done as much for the mandolin and acoustic string music as any one.His opinions about the Dead probably are related more closely to his experience and relationship to Jerry Garcia than to public sentiment about a band that was no more or less than a pop counter-culture phenomena having little to do with actual talent. Why is it so difficult to give the guy a little credit? I'm done too! Whatever the response,I'm sure it will only help to prove my point.

Joe Parker

[Michael H Geimer]

Sure enough Mandofiddle! ... I know I hardly resemble the musician I was as little as five years ago. In my mind, she was only an arbitrary icon. I have never really believed at all in the concept of 'selling out'. Albums are just way too much work! Having your personal 'fire' involved in the process would almost seem neccesary - but then Milly Vanilly got their CD out, so ... ?

So hopefully eveyone can see that I'm just thinking outloud today. I'm really not trying to profer 'my vision' of things, at all. By I do find this an very interesting topic.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Dawg music isn't just jazz with different instrumention. There are many major differences. Jazz is ussually based around a 2-5-1 progression. Dawg music isn't always. Real jazz, and especially bebop, in general can have much more complicated rythyms and heads. They definately share some chord voicings and the feel is often similar but to a player, they are very different. especially the way of accenting the 8th notes in bebop is different. The drums push jazz rythmically-guitar is ornamental. In Dawg music, the guitar pushes the band-has a totally different role.
The question, did grisman come up with a style of his own or just meld things togethor so they sounded totally different than anything else to that point. The answer-he did both because they are the same thing. Look at what monroe did-he didn't really invent string band music but he merged things already there, and his vision brought something different out. there isn't anything truly new since bach-but if you look at any innovators that have come along, they build on foundations but come up with something different. Explain to me how Yonder Mountain is a different kind of band than new grass revival. they aren't as good of players and they jam out songs. Is that enough to constitute a new style???

[mandocrustacean]

I'm hoping for the evolution of new communities in cyberspace and all of the possibilities there that others here have spoken of. With new outlets like iTunes Music Store, perhaps musicians can eventually bypass the big media corps and market more directly. If this happens, the integrity of music can be preserved and also the musicians can still make a living with their music. Even if illegal music downloading can be stopped, the technology is available that could eventually bring about the demise of the companies that encourage the homogenization of music. There will still be people that buy "Wonder Bread" but more people could then get hooked on the thick, heavy goodness of stone ground whole wheat bread. A lot of people don't even realize that the world is filled with good quality music but it just isn't being marketed to them. Many people, "the bewildered herd" as Chomsky calls them, are content to swallow the pablum fed to them by the media. I'm all for a decentralized means of distribution so more quality musicians can benefit. That's my opinion FWIW. I also watched Sesame Street but I also watched Mister Rogers and remember seeing Peter Ostroushko in the neighborhood.

[mandofiddle]

Explain to me how Yonder Mountain is a different kind of band than new grass revival. #they aren't as good of players and they jam out songs. #Is that enough to constitute a new style???
Well, I'll have to be honest with you in that I haven't heard a lot of Newgrass Revival. So I can't really tell you that. I'm not a big fan of YMSB myself. Just not "drawn" to their style I guess. But a lot of people are. I think it has more to do with their stage antics/presence and party atmosphere than their music (IMHO). I think NGR invented jamgrass, but was it termed that? I don't know because I wasn't in the fold when they were performing. From what I have heard of NGR, they didn't go that far out there when jamming. I've only heard 1 or 2 shows though, so i can't really say. The shows I've heard of Yonder, they go WAY out there in their jams. Just to attempt that (successful or not) with bluegrass instruments is pretty original.

My main argument about Grisman comes from his mouth. I wish I could find the interview where he says he came up with Dawg music by merging all these styles that he liked together. His claims about originality in music strikes me as seemingly hypocritical seeing as how that's where he came from himself. Originality as it applies to pop music and "record company" music fits well into his viewpoint though. No matter, I'm still a fan of DGQ. I'm just not too fond of his personal originality opinions.

[spud]

But what about that dang black tape on his headstock!!!!!

people say things,all the time that would have been better,worded differently...but we say what we say sometimes,.....and sometimes we get roasted over the coals for saying it!!....It was a good interview,gave me a good timeline on what he's done and how his music has evolved.Anybody who works on c.d. projects knows ,It's a bunch of work,with not many avenues to get it out ,short of playing coffee houses,festivals,
clubs,pushing them at borders/barnes noble.....
So from a whole lot smaller scale I can see where he is frustrated with the media options that he seem's to be down on.....It's a hip hop world!
Trying to get somewhere and getting the double "What kind of music do you do??",
Maybe he just needs a good shirt that has pieces that pull off as needed!....then some exposure is sure to come his way.....BUT that's been done!!!
His whole trouble is NO rinestone and NO cowboy hat!!!

That dang tape??

------------
Boyd

[Crowder]

Like Grisman, I've never been a fan of mainstream ANYTHING. I used to rail against the inanity of pop culture in any form....movies, music, books, TV, whatever. I realize now that it was all wasted energy. There are two reasons that the average person likes "popular" stuff: they're comfy with it, and it gives them some kind of pleasure that they can share with their friends. Nothing to fault with that. Let them have Shania, let them have NASCAR, let them have American Idol and CMT and Titanic. Wouldn't you know, most people look to the entertainment industry for entertainment. I guess visual artists really get ticked off when they see Ansel Adams posters in every dorm room on Earth, but in the end they need to realize that there's something that attracts people to that style other than the low price and easy availability.

Grisman's real problem is that he has taken something that he was personally passionate about and made it his career. I say "lucky him", but I can also understand that there was no way he wasn't going to wind up disappointed.

[mandoJeremy]

Hey Tim-n-VA, I agree with you fully. If Allison wanted more she would go with someone besides Rounder and Nickel Creek would definitely go with someone besides Sugar Hill in little 'ole' North Carolina. I do happen to agree with Grisman on his interview for the most part. YMSB will never be a NGR!! NGR invented their own style also and so did David Grisman. Did he fuse other music styles into his...YES, did Bill Monroe fuse other music styles into his....YES and YES! Does that make both of them unoriginal? I don't think so. That's all I even feel like typing because I would have one full page devoted to this. I agree, I agree, I agree with DG.

[mandosage]

A couple of comments.. About 27 years ago I was visiting a guy I worked with at his house for the first time. This I was a young guy embarking on a career.. This guy worked as a lead man in a factory, he was about 15 years my senior. As I walked in his living room I noticed he had a lot of musical gear and under a sheet he had a really nice sho-bud steel guitar. We had never talked about music as an interest either of us had. I made a comment that I would like to hear him play and maybe we should get together sometime to do so. I will never forget the look on his face and what he said. He said he used to play steel for Hank Williams and that he doesn't play anymore, that doing it as a job ruined the fun side of it. Looking back.. I would have to say I'm so grateful for the many decisions I have made in my life with respect to the fact that I made a conscious decision 30+ years ago to go to college and not play full time with a band. I realized I didn't have "the total package" i.e. talent, commitment, brain wiring, etc. to be as good as the people I respected.. such as Sam B., D. Grisman, C. White, etc. etc. And I'm glad I did because music is more fun for me know than it ever was. So--- All that to say---What Dawg & Jerry had when they got togethrer was great-- no plan, no agenda, just experimenting musically and trying to make good music. But, the other point of disillusionment with the music "entertainment" industry is something I am not capable of critiquing. I believe it to be true though. So in a sense I am sympathetic and even somewhat for the Dawg. But I do like most of his music very much.

[Bluegrass Boy]

I once heard that Bach has been accused of just stringing together a bunch of old popular melodies. Not sure if it's true, or if it is, does that constitute genius or plagerism? One thing, as I grow older, I have developed a greater tolerance for someone being a bit, shall we say, cantankerous? Opinionated? C'mon, the Dawg is from New York. What do you expect? 30+ years in Northern California can't completely erase his roots. Let him Kvetch!

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Good musicians borrow, great musicians steal.

[TonyP.]

Once again very good points all around. The one thing I got from the interview that I've not read here is I got a glimpse of a world I'll never be part of . I think the comments about the Dead were about stuff that sound like they happened maybe because Jerry and El Dawg were jamming/giging maybe? Who knows except DG, but you gotta know he knows more about the internal stuff of what was happening inside the Dead and the Dead aint the Dead without Jerry. Also who else thought that was a crappy thing for Micky Hart to say about Jerry? From the footage of Grateful Dawg I got that DG was rather protective of Jerry, he was not in very good shape! All his stuff about the music industry from my view point rings so true. I didn't see it as anything more than being tired of knocking your head against deaf ears. I think to him so much of this stuff does sound "formula" and I for one are disappointed with AKUS's direction. Yeah, they are great players but I saw first hand that the crooner stuff is what draws the big pop crowds. AKUS can play BG with the best of them but the last 2 times I saw them when they played BG the crowd started talking, but was totally rapt for the crooner stuff. Ever since Two Highways more and more of her stuff is that stuff and I always skip over it so less of the cd's are worth buying to me, so I don't. I think she HAS to pay attention to what sells, she is a slave to it, everybody who wants to play music pro is.Alison tried to get it on her terms and knew she would be eaten alive with "packaging" if she left Rounder. At least you can't say that about the Dawg, his shows aren't "split", yet. To me the Dawg is original and you would almost have to be from that time because so much of him NGR, and Tony Rice, Bela Fleck, etc have become the vocabulary of what all the others are now doing we take it for granted. That's why we call them the Usual Suspects.

[Strathspey]

An old Professor of mine once elaborated on how James Joyce could never have written Finnegan's Wake (which is complex to the point of being almost unreadable) without having started with Dubliners (which is classic, straight-forward short-stories).

Now, this might be esoteric, but the analogy is that Grisman couldn’t do that Dawg stuff unless he started by mastering the roots of Blues, Jazz etc… and then elaborating and defining himself. Simply put, you have to walk before you run. This isn’t an original idea, of course, but mastering the basic makes the brilliant possible.

Ultimately, Grisman’s career might be defined by what he has done with Dawg music –although fewer people may understand it and appreciate it. Meanwhile, the Grisman music that most may listen to and appreciate might be his simpler, closer to the roots recordings.

What draws me to Grisman is that he is doing both things at once. Compare some Dawg music to the simple beauty of Tone Poems – he seems to be able to get outside of himself and be at the beginning and the end. I find his Roots and Tone Poems-type material very satisfying and the Dawg stuff intriguing.

To me, Grisman is brilliant – although I will never be able to fully appreciate his more complex material.

As for Grisman’s opinions, as expressed in the article, I find them interesting. I agree with some points, but that isn’t really important. The article does show that music and friends are very important to David Grisman and I appreciate that.

Matt

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Well put Matt

[John Rosett]

thank you matt! well said indeed.
( )
insert hand clapping in the above space.
john

[Gary S]

I felt most of Grisman's interview to be accurate, but I do feel he should tread lightly when he corrals most of modern music into one big grouping in insinuating a lack of originality. Grisman himself who's music is very heartfelt and inspired draws upon for style and material many current and past sources. I will still listen to Dawg play "minor swing" although I will always go back to Django for the definitive version and inspiration, Deadheads will forever listen to "Going down the road feeling Bad" and I hope they also listen to any # of wonderful versions of this traditional tune recorded in the 20s and 30s, and Sam and Daves "old time medley" is very tasteful and a nice change of pace on their cd, but I will pull out my Skillet Lickers or Camp Creek Boys recordings when I want to be truly inspired by old Time music.
I guess what I am trying to say is there is room for both and Grisman in a way acknowledges this in his recordings.
Have a great day...Gary Silverstein

[DarthWoody]

Without question this is the best thread I have ever read on the Cafe. #My thanks to all of you for voicing such a wide array of thoughtful opinions.

I don't think there is anything wrong with letting the "commercial music" freight train go where it wants. #Product begets profit begets manipulation begets advertising begets demand. #Fast food, crummy radio, unbelievable TV, watch it get more so. #I follow it from my own distance it with some incredulity.

I appreciate the fact Grisman is secure enough to skewer a few sacred cows. #It makes me want to look deeper into the roots of music. #For my birthday I asked for some JSP sets of the Carter family and Django. #Without you guys and the comando list I would never know where to start. #In our own small way we are an antidote to the commercial nuttiness.

Stephen

[garyblanchard]

I finally had a chance to read the interview. I think it was, for the most part, very positive. Some of the negative parts seemed to me to be "incited" by the interviewer, who probably had an idea which buttons to push to get some heated replies. That is the downside of an interview. Even on a discussion board like this, where we have the ability to review what we say carefully before we hit the send button, things are sometimes said in a less than diplomatic way.

Hearing the Garcia/Grisman "Shady Grove" CD encouraged me to go back to explore the roots of the music; it also inspires me to see where I can take it. It's all good!

[jbrwky]

Jerry good. David good. GD fun. DGQ interesting. Crowder said, "Let them have Shania..". I say, Let me have Shania. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[GVD]

garyblanchard Posted on Mar. 04 2004, 08:06
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some of the negative parts seemed to me to be "incited" by the interviewer, who probably had an idea which buttons to push to get some heated replies.

Well said Gary and I'd like to expand on that just a bit. I used to be interviewed quite frequently (for racing not mando playing) and almost without fail I would be disapointed when reading the article. I could talk at length about a particular topic and just kind of casually mention something else and guess which topic got the most print? A lot times the writer edited out what was really relevant and then used the trivial out of context. I guess they figure controversy sells more papers even if they have to manufacture it on their own. The only interviews I was ever happy with was live radio. That way everybody could hear the questions and answers in the proper context.

It could very well be Mick Skidmore (JamBand writer) once again proving the old theory "Man bites Dawg" increases circulation. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

GVD

[jeffshuniak]

well I did like his point that while there are talented musicians around, none of them seem to be drawing from outside sources. string cheeze is watered down "dead", I dont listen to chris thile, never heard him ever, but grisman seemed to think that even that kid wasnt doing anything unusual or new? he mentioned listening to miles, coltraine, thats awesome, thats what I listen to , amongst other things.. what I got from this , is , if you want to make creative music, quite listening to your favorite band, bc you will sound like a watered down version of them. go out and listen to more music! classical, jazz, ethnic, folk. I totally believe you have to draw from influences outside your scope of interest. but I dont believe in his suffering makes music mentality. the pythagoreans who figured out music thousands of years ago werent suffering, bach didnt suffer, his children didnt suffer, mozart rich, vivaldi-filthy rich elitist bast--rd , right? (just kidding, he had elitist ideas towards publishing , but he was a charitable man) on the other hand, it is often "privelgage" which enables music. especially in america where nothing is free.

Not specific to the interview but it has been my observation that a lot of people confuse their personal taste with the concept of value/talent/originality. There are lots of performers that I don't like but I try to refrain from saying they aren't good, etc.

[jeffshuniak]

oh yeh we can all do that , if you let us... (people in general, not specifically the cafe) music is like food. people just like what they like, there is no explaining that.

I believe good music comes in all forms, its the "vocabulary" of the music that counts to me. I think its good to listen to as much as possible. I dont like bluegrass, but I wouldnt dare say its not good. I think that to be a good mandolin player, you should be a good, and "thourough" musician... thats all.

[BenE]

Not specific to the interview but it has been my observation that a lot of people confuse their personal taste with the concept of value/talent/originality. #There are lots of performers that I don't like but I try to refrain from saying they aren't good, etc.


Good post! #It always makes me a bit nervous when folks say they don't like this or that...Especially when those bands could pick circles around me! #Sometimes there is more to music than technical proficiency...

[jeffshuniak]

did I say I didnt like this or that? I didnt mean to.
I just typed a gordon rule essay http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif reply to this, and then thought, well this isnt neccessary.

"good music" is definetely a tricky one.

as I said before, its just like "good food"

personally, I do prefer, "vocabulous" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif music. like the various ethnic styles, classical, and jazz. I do NOT like bluegrass, but I have a friend who plays stand up bass in a BG band and she is very smart and talented. she likes BG she doesnt like jazz. she goes to school and learnes music theory and doesnt like jazz. I dont know. but she is the way she is, and I think she is very cool.

[Flowerpot]

Well Xena, the fact that he can't get airtime may color his perceptions, but I thought his point was that a great percentage of people who actually get to hear his music like it. However, with the music execs catering to the LCD (least common denominator), very few people will be exposed to alternate types of music. So it's a chicken and egg situation; the is little demand for Grisman's music because nobody has heard it, and nobody has heard it because there's little demand. Break the cycle somewhere -- such as making a movie like Oh Brother -- and suddenly there's popular demand for some type of music that would never have seen the light of day otherwise. But that happens all too rarely.

[elenbrandt]

Grisman's music has been a fixture in my life since 1979 (when my first ex-husband was in a band that opened for the DGQ). #There is nothing he could say, express, do, think, play, expound etc. that will ever diminish his talent in my eyes. #He is one of a very small handful of either musicians and/or composers whose music has reached to the absolute depth of my soul, torn off the top of my head to make way for the joy explosion, or otherwise made my head spin a la Linda Blair. #As a New York teamster would say..."You got a problem with that?"
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[mrmando]

Well, it's obvious to me that he's using "they grew up watching Sesame Street" as a metaphor for "they had an ordinary carefree suburban childhood without the attendant suffering necessary to be a great artist." I suppose he has a point, but the correlation between suffering and great art isn't necessarily one to one. Where are Grisman's sharecropping credentials? Yet I think he makes great music.

[mandofiddle]

Hmm, I must not of paid close enough attention since I didn't catch the Sesame Street comment. I don't necessarily agree with that sentiment. I could see how suffering may lead someone to art as a way of "forgetting", and then the art being affected by that suffering. But good art isn't always inspired by suffering. I mean come on... To think that is kind of closed minded if you ask me.

Same as MrMando though, i still think he makes great music. I just don't agree with his viewpoints...

[stringburner]

Hi, I'm new to the forum, it looks like I'll start off with a bang. I like David Grisman's playing, but I'm a bit surprised at some of his comments. He should be proud of the fact that he stimulated younger players like Chris Thile, he was responsible, along with players like Mike Marshall,Sam Bush and others, to bring mandolin playing to another level. David Grismans' fingers didn't bleed anymore than any other player that learns to play an instrument.(at that level, ie, Chris Thile) He sounds very bitter! I hope he was having a bad day at the office!

[mrmando]

If you read carefully, David is ragging on YMSB and SCI but he makes an exception for Chris Thile.

[stringburner]

Not really, it's more of a forced exception, not even "the Dawg" can totally bash Chris, he's that good!!

[Robbie]

Grisman can play circles around lots of players, sure, but he's got no soul. It's all pompous, and flash and smoke and mirrors.

Give me a second tier, but soulful, player anyday over that "Dawg" crap.
I happen to like Grisman's playing, and I respect the opinion of anyone who might not. #But I am completely baffled by these seemingly contradictory comments. #Without soul, you're not "playing circles" around anybody. #And if you're a soulful player, you're not "second tier". #

So what do you suppose a player without soul can possibly do to be considered good or great? #Is it all that finger moving or what? #

On another topic in this thread - what is so wrong with pop music, and does it matter if certain performers are now, or have ever been "pop"? #I think some pop music is great; alot of it sucks. #Just the same as classical, jazz, bluegrass, etc.

[jim simpson]

I have always liked David's music in all it's various forms. I try to see him live whenever I can. It does sound like he's a bit bitter and I would certainly refrain from putting down other performers in print (glass houses). I still like him even if he is a scumbag (just kidding!) oops, wrong thread!

[Frankmc]

Anyone on the list know him well enough to ask him to come on and talk about it with us? It'd be interesting for sure.

[jeffshuniak]

I think this whole "suffering to make art" mentality is very modern, almost American..
sure old european folk music is about suffering, often.. but what about the grand music masters that have been respected thru all these decades and centuries. when you learn music proper, classical is the standard. these composers did not suffer too much....not financially at least... yes, the blues, jazz, gypsy music is all about poverty, love, social position, but this is the folk music, the "little people's music". yes it is charming and beautiful, I am a big fan myself of all styles. #but it is not "all" the "only" music that can be deemed creative. the works of the composers is also expressive and emotional.- and the "big music" has never been created from the impovershed..perhaps there is an exception or two to the rule...


yeh, I am sure grisman was real poor growing up. he stole his first mandolin.

[JDARTGOD]

I wrote the Acoustic disc site to share my comments about Dawg's comments. #Here's what I sent:

"I read the article recently posted on the jambands.com site. #I found it on the Mandolin Cafe website. #Pretty interesting. #I especially "enjoyed" some of the self-righteous tone noted in the text of the final question to his Majesty. #

As a huge fan of Alison Krauss and Union Station with Jerry Douglas, as well as Wynton Marsalis, I now have a new found "respect" for Mr. Grisman. #I suppose he's entitled to his opinions, just like the rest of us, but his statements about bands trying to sell records only, the "pop reference" to Alison Krauss, Wynton Marsalis (and Sesame Street.....he has nothing to say to me?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?), and those bands who make DVDs were, #well......, let's just say I've recently relieved myself of the burden of owning the DVD, "Grateful Dawg".

I'd write more, but please, # "Hold on, I'm strummin'....."

Jeff Dodson
Music Lover "


Here's the response I got:

he sure can be a cantankerous ol' dawg at times. #sure doesn't make my gig any more pleasant. #but these are his opinions, and should be seen as just that. he hates when I make him listen to pearl jam in my car, that's for sure !


Rob Bleetstein
Acoustic Disc
P.O. Box 4143
San Rafael, CA #94913
800-294-3472
415-482-9377
publicity@acousticdisc.com


So I sent back:

"You got a tough job there my friend......all the best to you, Dawg and the Acoustic Disc Family. #I have several of your label's discs and enjoy your music very much. #Y'all stay out of trouble and put a muzzle on the Dawg when he starts slamming other Acoustic Artists!!

Jeff Dodson"


At least Acoustic Disc responded. # #Most companies/people today won't even bat an eye when you send them a complaint or negative feedback.

[neal]

"I was reading the posts before I read the Dawgs interview. I was figuring O lord what did David say ..... I read the interview and how anybody can be offended by that is just unbelievable.. Dang.

David is one of the few players that I can honestly say plays with 100 percent soul.
The Music business is a joke now days they are all copy cat acts. 90 % of the people on the charts can get their butts kicked by people on the streets who can never make it because of their look or other things that have nothing to do with their musical abilities. Radio . Oh don't make me go there. People do not control what they want to hear on the radio we are spoonfeed what record execs want us to hear.

Of course this is my opinion and hope it has not offended anybody in the BIZ..

The Dawg is tops in my book"


Gotta agree, except for that butt kissin' at the end

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[duuuude]

To me it just sounded like crotchety Dave just tellin people in his to-the-point way to get off their butts & create rather than re-create, livin' true to Mon's sugestion to make yer own style of music.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[rnjl]

Hmm, a few random responses to different parts of this thread:

1) Just because someone is brilliant, creative, and/or charismatic in one field of life, doesn't mean they are very nice or competent in any other field of life.

I'm in the religion business, and I can't tell you how many pastors and rabbis I've met who are charismatic, interesting, brilliant, and inspiring on the pulpit, who are rather dull, dogmatic, and just not nice when you're sitting in the car or at home.

That's NOT to say DG is dull, dogmatic, or mean, just observing that people are defending his playing when others are critiquing his opinions- as if the two had anything to do with each other!

2) Suffering for one's art- well, yes.

I think the idea is not that you have to suffer to be an artist, but that art requires some sacrifice- I believe it was Yitzhak Perlman who, when told by an admirer that she "would give up her whole life to play the violin like that," responded "Yes, I have given up my whole life to play the violin like this."

Music is emotional expression- and emotions are a release of joy, tension, sorrow, angst, hope, whatever. If life is all comfort and predictability and no search and no tension or risk- where's the emotional authenticity?

Just as an aside here- notice how modern country music on the radio speaks to its audience not so much of "little cabin homes," but of suburban homes with children, marriages (whole and broken), job frustrations. . . #the emotions of real life. In a strange way, that IS authenticity in our age, or a least a piece of it.

3) I am totally puzzled by DG's perspective on the Dead.

Having seen them about 19 times (not only that, but I remember at least a few of those shows. . . .) I think Jerry was as sloppy as he was creative and "right on," and the rest of the band carried HIM as much as he pushed THEM, at least, at times.

Just my two shekels, worth every penny y'all paid for them.

peace to all, (and happy Purim for the Hebraically inclined),

Neal

[mrbook]

David Grisman has achieved a level of musical success far beyond what I will ever reach, but probably wishes his music was on the radio like the big pop stars. Thirty years ago in college, we had a great guitar (and mandolin) player for a show (who is more popular today); after the concert, he and I were at Dunkin Donuts, where he complained that he should be more famous than Bob Dylan because he wrote better songs and played guitar better. I don't remember responding, but thought that he just didn't get it - I liked his music better, but it didn't have the more universal appeal that Dylan's seemed to have.

A couple years ago I spent a lot of time driving my teenage daughter and her friends around, I would hear them talk about how Brittany Spears was "really singing their life." Luckily, they are my daughter's friends and not my daughter (who realizes Bill Monroe was cool, even if she doesn't want to listen to him every time we get in the car). Grisman and others make music outside the mainstream of pop culture and have some success, but it still doesn't mean that everyone will embrace it. I like Grisman playing bluegrass - "Home is Where the Heart Is" is a recording everyone should own. I often put three Django Reinhardt CDs in my player, set it on "random," and listen for 6-8 hours while working - but I've never been moved by Dawg music, even though I continue to give it a listen now and then. That's just me - your experiences may differ.

[OdnamNool]

I tried to post here a few nights ago, but the computer wouldn't let me. I tried twice! Guess I'll try again...

Well...first of all...I don't believe in talking about others...rather...I think it's uncool to catagorize anybody. To scrutinize them...they are what they are...so be it...

I feel extremely priviledged to say that I have seen the David Grisman Quintet. Hmmm. My words here...well...words don't work. It was indescribible (yikes...bet that's spelled wrong!)

I guess all I can say is that the experience was mesmerizing and that all of those guys are musical genius's. ALL of them. Oh, and that percussion dude!!! Whoooahhh! Dang me.

BUT! I guess everyone knows what a Kermit fan I am. It's true! And if David Grisman has a problem with Seseme Street...well...I beg to differ! That show has hosted MANY a talented musical artists...and it's good for the kids...

Seeing the David Grisman Quintet was the highlight of my life! They are so wonderful...so great...Talk about high... Whhhhhhoa Nelly...

[mando bandage]

When I learn to play a mandolin as well as David Grisman and figure out how to survive in the music business for 30+ years as my principal means of support, I will presume to criticize him. Until then, I'm just a ham'n'egger, and I know it.

R

[mandomood]

some of the comments about folks not having anything to say musically I understood as folks not having anything to say to DAWG specifically, because he is familiar with those that started the path when it comes to bluegrass or jazz etc...

I don't think it was geared in the way that those folks have nothing to say to anyone period...

most of that interview seemed to be his take on things, his perspective and what things looked like and felt to him, not meant to be an opinion word for word to be accepted and used by the masses.

and the whole suffering thing isn't just about money or growing up poor. that doesn't equal suffering and I've seen those who were more than comfortable in their living go thru tremendous amounts of suffering. personal suffering is just that...there are many things that can torment someones existence or make it a constant struggle to get thru everyday or a period in ones life...

some folks 'generalize' too much when they read things and immediately get 'upset' at how strong of an opinion someone might have...if it makes you think about something a little more indepth or how you view things then it served its purpose. If you only get angry and then hate that person or stop listening to their music or whatever, then I think the point may have been totally lost.

[duuuude]

Oh, and that percussion dude!!! #Whoooahhh! #Dang me.
Ya mean Joe Craven? He's blown me away for the last 20 years playing with various groups, truly an unsung hero and musical genius, IMWO.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[OdnamNool]

You should have seen him! He played a plastic cup, a trash can, a http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif(looked like a toaster), his face, the bass, and a drum with notes!!! Tones!!! It was INCREDIBLE! AND by golly when he played the violen!!! Oh! My heart drooled! AND THE MANDO!!! Hey...that guy COOKED.

BUT THEY ALL DID!!! It was astonishing!!! As I say...I can't describe it. The David Grisman Quintet...oh shucks...I can't say... If you all are lucky enough to have them come near your town...GO SEE THEM!!! Unbelievable...

[OdnamNool]

And by the way...I did NOT insert that smiley...

[garyblanchard]

The DGQ may be coming to the Rams Head Tavern here in Annapolis MD. This is a nice, intimate venue; the artists often set up a table for autographs after the show. For those who have seen him in the past, is it likely that Grisman would do this? Would he sign a mandolin?

[jim simpson]

Gary,
The first time I saw Grisman after a show, he posed with me for a photo (he & I were less grey then). Last summer he sat at a table and signed a ticket stub for me. He seemed to light up when I asked about the mando he was playing with Old & In The Grey. It was not his usual Loar but a 2-point Gibson with extra f-holes (minature). Maybe you could ask him about the electrical tape.

[garyblanchard]

Gary,
The first time I saw Grisman after a show, he posed with me for a photo (he & I were less grey then). Last summer he sat at a table and signed a ticket stub for me. He seemed to light up when I asked about the mando he was playing with Old & In The Grey. It was not his usual Loar but a 2-point Gibson with extra f-holes (minature). Maybe you could ask him about the electrical tape.
I don't know if I'd want to get him riled. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[T W Perez]

I expected a much worse interview than what I read,having read the posts first.Anybody that has ever been interviewed in relation to their music probably said never again.I thought he was very gracious to Garcia,and as two musicians who took the music they loved,bluegrass,and followed their muse into unchartered waters the mutual respect was obvious,as is the implication.The music that came out of DGQ,where tony took it etc has been one of the biggest influences in acoustic music. his anology about sesame street was harsh,but it was his.I do think more great music has come out of a spirit of suffering and pushing through,than otherwise,and will leave it at that.To say that grismans following is limited to 200 people is ridiculous but goes to show we can all be capable of a jab here and there.

[dobrodawg]

[QUOTE](LeftCoastMark @ Mar. 01 2004 20:40)
Grisman can play circles around lots of players, sure, but he's got no soul. It's all pompous, and flash and smoke and mirrors.

"He's got no soul"?! David Grisman is nothing but soul!!!

[Tom C]

I'd say 95% of Grisman's tunes are arpegio's and pentatonics. (excuse the spellings -If I could spell them all maybe I can play em all). When you look at it in this perspective, many of his tunes are pretty simple. He plays many different chords away from bluegrass but it's not magic.

[duuuude]

I'd say 95% of Grisman's tunes are arpegio's and pentatonics.... He plays many different chords away from bluegrass but it's not magic.
That's what has always appealed to me about his music, nothin special, no magic, just simple music played very well, with the occasional flash of brilliance & speed.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[mandolooter]

It doesn't have to be complicated to sound good!

[Michael H Geimer]

" I'd say 95% of Grisman's tunes are arpegio's and pentatonics. "

Huh? ... isn't that like criticizing a baker for using butter, milk, and eggs 95% of the time? I mean, those are the staple elements of a good melody ... IMO, at least.

I hear lots of people who equate independence with some need to be unique. But, I personlly don't think there is any need to blaze a whole new trail in order to walk your own path in life.

I once knew a guy who vowed never again to use a Dom7 chord, as he felt that they had been 'played out'. LOL!

- Benig

BTW ... nothing personal Tom. Your comment just struck me as funny, that's all.

[duuuude]

I once knew a guy who vowed never again to use a Dom7 chord, as he felt that they had been 'played out'. LOL!
Yeah, y'know I'm gettin kind tired of all them dang G chords I keep hearin too, maybe I'll just skip 'em!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[kmiller1610]

However, he came up with an original kind of music-maybe it isn't extremely popular-i'll give you that.
Isn't Dawg music basically just jazz with different instrumentation? How is that completely original? Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Grisman's music, and he is a huge influence on my playing. I think the term "original" might be better implied as far as how Grisman translates the music. He writes some good original music, but its still jazz with different instrumentation.
I liked much of the interview, but felt that Chris Thile got an undeserved pass over "Chris Thile is an awesome player, that kind of stuff I notice but let's face it, I'm a guy that listens to Miles Davis, John Coltrane, the Stanley Brothers, and Howlin' Wolf and all the real ####.."

Perhaps "real ####" means old?

Thile does some truly original stuff. For example, if any of you have seen "Cold Coffee on the Dashboard" from the Bluegras Journey DVD that just came out. This is a Thile original that is, well... original.

[AlanN]

I don't call dawg music jazz, never did. And to hear David play jazz tunes, well, it all has his spin on whatever he plays, which I guess is the mark of a stylist: whatever he plays sounds like him playing it.

To my ears, jazz has as an un-structured structure, particularly be-bop. The chords are there, but after that it's wide open after the head. Dawg music has more of a confined approach. Don't get me wrong - Dawggy is da man...:)

[OdnamNool]

Isn't Dawg music basically just jazz with different instrumentation? How is that completely original? He writes some good original music, but its still jazz with different instrumentation.[/QUOTE]
Huh? "Jazz with different instrumentation"... What the heck does that mean? Sorry. It's magic.

[jongolin]

Poor Lucky Dawg!
He reminds me a bit of Chet Atkin in his skill sets: Awesome technique but he needs someone like Garcia to remind him that it's really about the feeling. (With Chet it was Merle Travis) But not in his attitude(s) about life. He has a saving grace though "It's gotten so far away from musical values, but I must say that along with that there is more great music available now." At least his love of music appears to be strong enough to overcome his (apparently) bitter and self-aggrandizing world views.
A common irrationality he engages in "Great music, great art is timeless but they are not treating it that way. In my company that is my criteria but it is hard to survive." Great music or art or whatever is not "timeless," Try playing those secular intervals to someone in the early/mid 1st millenium and you very well could be burned at the stake. Great music is just that--great music. No flowery explaination needed. Great music is a lot of folks criteria but ya think maybe, just maybe, people might have different ideas of what "great" is? C'mon Dawg, many people have ideals they aspire to.
"...they have made music into a disposable commodity." Music is the original--and I think the best--disposable commodity. After I play a note or song (and it's not recorded) where does it go?
"Chris Thile is an awesome player, that kind of stuff I notice but..." That "but" pretty much reduces an awesome talent to a mere sidenote--especially considering his next doozy. Mr. Dawg, you talented, talented man, shouldn't you helping promote someone like Thile trivializing him? There's an idea: How about doing a recording with Chris? Perhaps his youthful exuberance will help quell the bitterness you seem to have acquired through the years.
"I'm a guy that listens to Miles Davis, John Coltrane, the Stanley Brothers, and Howlin' Wolf and all the real ####." So you listen to the "real ####" huh? And what does everybody listen to--the fake ####? Talented as you are you are not, in fact, the final arbiter of what "real ####"--and I assume you mean good music-- is. Everybody gets to make their own choices.
"Most bands are just too aware of now we're making our DVD. When the great music was being made that didn't exist." I don't know what "most" people are thinking--have you become extremely adept mind reader capaple of cataloguing what "most" people are thinking and aware of? Great music was made and is made under just about every circumstance and, just as you've realized, in our society a person needs to make money--as you're doing with your acoustic disc company.
That being said, I'll keep listening to you cause you do make some great music (although I don't know if you're the "real ####" or not:D )
and I hope you can make your mind as beautiful your music.

Peace

[OdnamNool]

Huh? #Again... #Huh???

I don't understand folk's attitude concerning David Grisman...

Why does everyone think he is a bitter type of person?

When I saw him... he seemed to be quite a wonderful fellow! #Genuine... a regular dude... #Why are you all so down on him? #And who cares?

His music rocks.

[OdnamNool]

Big Time.

[mandocrustacean]

Yeah, his music does rock. I'd love to meet him someday.

[mando bandage]

Every time I glance at this thread, I get the feeling that people with strong opinions that may offend others criticize people with strong opinions that may offend others for expressing strong opinions that may offend others.

In the words of Bill Murray from "Stripes" "Lighten up, Francis."

R

[jongolin]

Mr. Bandage,
I admit I am passionate about my views but I'm not truly attached to them. Those were my impressions and observations of what I consider irrational/incongruent thought processes on the Dawgs part. No matter what anybody says someone will be offended by it. I am not offended by David's views--feeling offended is just a poor attempt to force someone into doing what you want them to do.
As for lightening up (Thanks for that one, I use it all the time!), I felt light when put in my 27 cents worth and at this moment am feeling the incredible lightness of being!

Peace

[ira]

these are always fascinating discussions on the cafe. the passion with which folks discuss their musical heroes or those that don;t turn them on is intense. it is also interesting to me when people refer to some pros and their music as "no - soul"

i have seen grisman live and the intensity with which he plays his music is right there for all to see. i've never seen chris t, but in video clips of live performances- he sure looks like he is putting it allout there for the audience.

enjoy the golden age of the mando folks. its all good, and who knows when we will have this many people to debate again.

[mando bandage]

jongolin

Fair enough.


Peace

And also with you.

R

[kmiller1610]

Music bridges us to the music artist in ways that have an almost religious quality. Some would call it idolatry. I think there is a mechanism where we "use" the music as a way of channeling feelings so that we feel uplifted and fulfilled. There is a worship quality in the relationship.

So, we get attached to our artists and want them to succeed. For some of us, there is a "no other God before me" attitude toward our favorites and a tendency to belittle those who might replace them.

I think it's healthy to realize this tendency and be careful to respect another mans' feelings about his special artists.

[Bob Sayers]

I thought it was a good interview, very honest. #It's been pretty tough for, I would say, the vast majority of folkies who embarked on professional careers in music in the 1960s. #Grisman's carved out a pretty interesting path in the intervening years and deserves every bit of the admiration that a lot of folks feel for him. #But he's also entitled to his candid opinions about the music business and even about other musicians. #He mentions the late Ralph Rinzler and, in fact, they sound quite similar. Ralph (whom I worked for for a time in the Office of Folklife Programs at the Smithsonian Institution) was a purest to the core and made no bones about his abiding dislike for the popular side of the industry, including great "progressive" bands like the Country Gentlemen. #I often disagreed with him; but I think it was his single-mindedness that made him such a compelling figure.

Bob

[futrconslr]

I didnt realize I owed such a debt of gratitude to Mr. Grisman for the music I listen to. I am so glad I have him to tell me what is "real" and what isnt.
What an arrogant cry baby.