another Arpeggio question

[Jasper]

I have printed some of the arpeggio exercises from Mandozine. So if the song is in the key of G and I am playing an arpeggio on the G scale, do I need to swap to a C scale arpeggio when the chord changes to C and a D arpeggio when the chord changes to D and so on, or can I just keep on plucking away at that G arpeggio since we are playing a song in key of G?

[misifus]

There are far more experienced players here than I, but I would arpeggiate the G *chord* while that chord is playing and the C chord while it is being played. Unless taking a solo, of course.

-Raf

[sailaway]

Arpeggios are a blast to play fast. They a re a wonderful exercise especially if played in each key in all the inversions while the evening news is on. (great practice technique.) But you generally need to match the arpeggio notes to the underlying chord progression in a song: C chord= C arpeggio etc. this is a fundamental of crosspicking technique.l . The melody notes drive the song , and playing for example the c arpeggio of notes c e g will clash and sound dissonant if the melody note you are hitting is d to f ( as f and e generally sound lousy together ... as do d and c etc etc etc )-- so the s afe thing to do is arpeggiate in the same tones as the chord progression. ie C arpeggio n c e g e g c g e c for a C chord then move to the 4th f a c -a c f -c f a over the F chord, etc etc etc .. To this I would add: sometimes throwing in a wild arpeggio such as a pentatonic C over an Am chord works but you really have to know the notes and listen to the notes to see if it sounds cool and desirable or becomes a raucous train wreck., many of which i have committed.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[ira]

i;m sure this has been covered before, but could someone define arpeggio and differentiate it from a scale.
thanks

[angrymandolinist]

An arpeggio is when you play each note in a chord one at a time, while a scale consists of seven notes used to form melodies and chords.

And Jasper, while it's more conventional to change arpeggios when the chords themselves change, I'd try both. If you hold out that G arpeggio for a few chord changes it could sound really interesting. Play around with them and see what you think works best.

[stefeb]

How many octaves when you play an arpeggio?

If an arpeggio is a chord whose notes are played individually, for a "C" chord would you simply play c-e-g, or continue down the neck?

[angrymandolinist]

Unless I'm mistaken, you can play any of the chord tones in any order you like, in as many octaves as you want; it mostly depends on the sound you're going for and what's possible/practical on your instrument. So if you like going from C on the G string to G on the E all they way up to the 12th fret on E (reminds me of Bach's first Unaccompanied Cello Suite), that should be a perfectly acceptable C arpeggio.

If you mess around with extended chords (Cadd9, C6 etc) you can get some very melodic-sounding arpeggios too.

[kudzugypsy]

i would go ahead and train myself to change arpeggios on chord changes, that is the main benefit in doing them. what you are tring to accomplish is to find the CHORD TONES within that chord. while you can play interesting things when superimposing other notes, you will get more long run benefit from *thinking* the change. these arpeggios are a BIG DEAL. you are learning the fundamental tones that make that chord sound the way it does. your ear needs to get to a relationship between the two. these are also your *SAFE* notes, you can blow thru any phrase you see fit, as long as you have downbeats on those chord tones, (or end the phrase on a chord tone, preferably the R, 3, 5) the sky is the limit.

[RobP]

If you stay in the key of G, it is perfectly ok to stay on the G arpeggio for the other chords as well. The arpeggio notes (R 3 5) are just a subset of the pentatonic scale (R 2 3 5 6). You can play the pentatonic scale based on the root note (G in this case) over any chord in the key.

That said, it might be more interesting to change the arpeggio (the pentatonic scale) to match the chord, but it is not a requirement.

Niles Hokkanen's Pentatonic Mandolin is really a must-have book http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Cheers,

Rob

[kudzugypsy]

the good and bad of pentatonics are that, yes, they fit over the changes in that key, but you have a sound that never really identifies anything.

[Jasper]

All good input...thanks everyone! Next question, now that we have determined that a G arpeggio will fit for all the chords in the key of G, could one play a G scale arpeggio throughout a song in the key of G?

[RobP]

You sure could -- it might get boring after the first few measures, but it won't clash.

Rob

[John Flynn]

If you stay in the key of G, it is perfectly ok to stay on the G arpeggio for the other chords as well. #The arpeggio notes (R 3 5) are just a subset of the pentatonic scale (R 2 3 5 6). #You can play the pentatonic scale based on the root note (G in this case) over any chord in the key.
Yes and no. You can play G B D over the 1, 4 and 5 chords, which are major. But once you get out of simple three (major) chord tunes, that is not always true. For instance, it would be risky to play the B note over the 2 chord, Am, because it will clash with the third of that chord, C.

Also and this is semantics, but important semantics, if you contine to play G B D when the chord changes to something other than G major, I am not sure it's correct terminnology to say you are still playing a G arpeggio. Yes, you are still playing G B D and it still works with the 1, 4 and 5 chords, but when the chord changes, those notes just become the notes on the pentatonic scale. I don't think I would say they were still an arpeggio.

My thinking here is that an arpeggio isn't just the notes of a chord, it actually IS a chord, technically called a "broken chord." An arpeggio is just another way of playing a chord. So saying "It's OK to continue playing a G arpeggio when the chord changes" would be the same as saying "It's OK to keep strumming a G chord when the chord changes." It could be true, but it doesn't look right to me on paper. I'd be interested to hear what others say on that. It may be a gray area.

Of course, any set of notes that sound like you want them to are "correct," so the best advice is try it all and hear what it sounds like!

[dwc]

An arpeggio is a melodic device, a construct if you will, of the notes that make up a chord. A G arpeggio then is the notes of that chord , the 1,3,5 in this case G-B-D. They can be played in any order that you think sounds nice.
In this way, arpeggios are a melodic device, like scales or modes.
Most of the time, when people play arpeggios they change the arpegio as the chords change, in a I-IV-V in G they would play x beats of a G arp. then x beats of C (C-E-G) then x beats of D (D-F#-A) or a D7. One could play the G arp. continuously, but then he would have to be thinking ahead with some theory, to avoid "distasteful" harmonies. The brain needs to always think, is the note I am about to play going to clash with the chord being played. in I-IV-V generally the chords will harmonize with the 1-3-5 of the tonic. I say generally because to my ears the G does not harmonize pleasantly with an F# so if both sounded simultaneously, the harmonies might be a bit "modern" for some people's taste. However, that being said, it all depends on the sound you are going for. Some harmonies that might be frowned upon in one genre could be perfectly acceptable in another genre.
I believe, in the end, it comes down to a tradeoff, you can make things simpler on your hands, but then your mind must work harder thinking ahead, or you can simplify the theory, but then your hands must pick up the slack and be ready to move on the changes. I still haven't thought of a way to play that eliminates the need for me to know my chords.

[kudzugypsy]

very good explanation johnny & dwc
i think the poster had the conclusion that yes, its ok to play G over everything else...
i think, once again, that it is VERY important if you are now first learning arpeggios and how to use them, that you think G = G arpeggio / C = C arpeggio Dm = Dm arpeggio. etc, etc. LATER, after your ear is advanced enough and you have some basic theory under your belt, you can begin to superimpose and find things that sound interesting over the changes. minor arpeggios are fun to put on top of other chords....BUT
Frankly, at a beginning level, you will do yourself more harm by playing GBD, GBD, etc over the changes. you must get your mind to think, and not just your hands.
a GREAT arpeggio study is big mon's 'Rawhide'...that entire song is basiclly embellished arpeggios....especially the bridge. notice how he OUTLINES EACH CHORD...E - A - D - G. now you could play pentatonics over the whole bridge as it is just a cycle of 5th progression, but you would not HEAR the chords change. what i mean is that if you stripped away the rhythm section and isolated the person playing pentatonics or the same arpeggio over everything, you would not be able to tell what tune that was...but with the chords outlined, you immediately would say, 'yeah, thats Rawhide'. another good thing about the bridge to Rawhide is that is moves through the chords pretty rapidly. this is really where arpeggios come in to play best, on uptempo tunes - really, you only have time to hit the arpeggio and quickly move on.

this is a great discussion, and good luck, it will all fit together it time, just start with good fundamentals and build up from there. often, the confusing part is there are MANY things that fall outside the box...you just have to use your musical ear to put everything into perspective. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[kvk]

I know just enough theory to be dangerous so let me explain what helps my thinking about scales and what notes to play and then I can confuse the rest of you'll.

Being that I'm still at the very beginning of learning to improvise, I like to group notes according to a complexity rating over the chord or key I'm playing. See the chart below which shows all the notes of the chromacitic scale and C major as an example. The next column highlights the arpegio notes 1,3,5. Over the major chord, these always work and are the safest. Add two more notes, the 2 and 6 and you get the Pentatonic scale. None of those notes are 1/2 step off the major chord notes so they are purdy dern safe almost all the time. Add two more, the 4 and 7 and you have the full major scale. Now those are within 1/2 step of the 3 and 1/8 so you gotta be careful with them and only play them at the right time. Pay attension to the changes and don't dwell on them at the wrong or you got yerself a clam. Next after that is the blue notes, the flatted 3 and 7, 3b and 7b. Now those make things real interesting sounding but you now gotta pay attention. You have four 1/2 notes in a row now in your scale so you might not want to play them all in a row. Maybe try a couple on the way up and a couple different ones on the way down, like 1, 3b, 3, 5, 3, 2b, 1. Also, I tend to lose the 7 when I use the 7b, like 5, 6, 7b, 8. (Some people put 5b in the blues scale but that's getting to where just about all your notes are in the scale. I've played it but more like just a slide into the 5 when not coming from the 4.)

<span style='font-family:Courier'>1 C App Pen Maj Blu
2b Db
2 D Pen Maj Blu
3b Eb Blu
3 E App Pen Maj Blu
4 F Maj Blu
5b Gb
5 G App Pen Maj Blu
6b Ab
6 A Pen Maj Blu
7b Bb Blu
7 B Maj Blu
8 C App Pen Maj Blu</span>

[Jasper]

quote "another good thing about the bridge to Rawhide is that is moves through the chords pretty rapidly. this is really where arpeggios come in to play best, on uptempo tunes"

Well, until I read this, I thought the arpeggio would be a nice diversion from tremolo on slow songs. Any input on this thought of using the arpeggio on fast versus slow tempos?