Advice on buying a log

[WoodyMcKenzie]

I will be looking at a red spruce log a fellow wants to sell me in a few days and I need some advice, since I have never bought a log before. According to his description, the log is from a tree 125-150 years old and it is the butt cut, as he called it. This section had no branches on it. It's diameter is 18 inches at the bottom and 17 inches at the top. It is fine-grained, grown at a high elevation. If all this is true, then realistically, is there any way to tell how many tops would be in such a log? He will cut it into sections with a chain saw and seal the ends for me. How many sections should be cut? What is the minimum diameter that billets can be harvested from? What kind of price should I offer him it if looks like good wood? Any advice about what to look for or how to test it? #

Thanks!

Woody

[Mario Proulx]

These are rounds?

If you're paying good money for it, split each one before handing over any money. You want to see inside the rounds, for inclusions, pitch pockets, pin knots, etc.... The closer you get to the center of the log(the juvenile growth), the more pin knots you'll get, and with such a small tree, you'll be in the juvenile growth. You also want to judge if there's spirol growth.

Your yield will depend on the above. It could be one top per billet, it could be ten. Plenty of bracewood....

As for what it's worth, keep in mind that when you buy tonewood from someone like Bruce, you're mostly paying for the labor that goes into processing of the log, his time and expertise in choosing said logs, and the risk taken(because no one can be 100% certain if a log will have pin knots, inclusions, pitch pockets, etc...., or not), and not the log itself. Be careful to not over pay. Raw spruce goes for peanuts in log yards....

[jc2]

Good advice from M. Proulx. Remember also that the log must be more than twice the width you need, an inch or two at the center will not be usable. 18 inches is close to the minimum. Also, the butt log will have "butt defect" which is when the fibers above the hinge area pull until they break rather than being cut, and are left in less than optimal condition (may be unusable).

[Spruce]

"It's diameter is 18 inches at the bottom and 17 inches at the top. "

Too small, IMHO...
Or at least I've never intentionally chosen a log this small, even for mandolins....

As Mario mentioned, an important thing to look for is the split. #
A very small percentage of Red Spruce logs splits perfectly straight, and that is the first and most important thing to look for...

I once counted over 20 criteria to judge whether a log is "tonewood" or knot, so the odds of it being golden is slim...

But it sounds like your foot is in the door, and maybe that golden log will be lying in the pile just over the next hillside....

Just curious...
What part of the world does this sprucer reside?
Maybe I can give you the name of some mills to check out...

[WoodyMcKenzie]

Well, this is most helpful! I would have thought that an 18 inch log would be large enough to get mandolin tops out of. It really is a "pig in a poke"!

Bruce--

The tree grew in southwest Virginia, next to the highest mountain in the state, at about 5,000 feet. It is now near me in central Virginia.

Please offer any more advice any of you might have. This is such a great resource-- Thanks!!

Woody

[Spruce]

Is this one log a guy cut down, or one selected from a huge pile?

When selecting spruce logs of any species, you can look at a virtual mountain of spruce logs, and find 2-3 that are candidates for instrument wood....

And then when they get pulled from the pile, you might see something (bad split, knots, a cat-face, etc. etc.) that will nullify it for consideration....

You should be able to get mando tops out of an 18" diameter log, but it's still dicey...
If there's anything wrong with the sapwood (discoloration or bug damage), you are simply screwed...
And that is a very common problem, especially if the log has sat around for any time whatsoever...

[sunburst]

Woody, I'm in your area and have experience with harvesting and processing red spruce.
I can help you, when I have time, but, alas, I'm so busy right now with so many things, that I can't be of much help.
I would call some local saw mills and try to find out what they are paying for spruce or pine logs for lumber. If you can get it for that kind of price, there's little to loose by giving it a try. If you have a choice of logs, I can help you select one, if you'd like - later.

[WoodyMcKenzie]

Thanks John for your offer!

Apparently, this fellow had samples of the wood tested with a Lucchi meter and the results were good. I am not sure what that means though. Is $3.00 per board foot a decent price for uncut lumber?

My violin making friend knows of a local mill here that sells birdseye at a good price. This summer would be a great time to make some rounds at some of the small mills around these parts. If you are game for that, then it would be a great learning opportunity for me.

Woody

[Spruce]

"Apparently, this fellow had samples of the wood tested with a Lucchi meter and the results were good. I am not sure what that means though. "

That means that someone is feeding you a total line of BS...
Just my humble opinion of course....

"Is $3.00 per board foot a decent price for uncut lumber?"

3000.00/1000 b.f. is an outrageous price for any log of any species of spruce...
Especially if it's only a measly 18" at the butt....

So I take it that this seller is hip to instrument-grade wood, no?
Anyone equipped with a Lucci meter and a 3000.00/1000 line of BS is to be avoided like the plague...

Again, just my 2 cents...

[Mario Proulx]

I'm with Bruce on this call, too. Anyone who has to use Lucci meter numbers to sell you wood is to be avoided. If he knows his wood that well, he'd split the rounds and sell them off as rough mandolin tops himself.

I paid under $80/ton for my spruce logs last year, loaded in my truck and ready to drag home. That's under 4 cents per pound! Of course, when all is said and done, I have many days work in the final products and more firewood than tonewood, but you get the picture. For me, it's about learning more about the wood itself, satisfying my curiosity and getting some much need excercise, and not a cost saving deal; I'd be better off, money and time-wise, to call Bruce and order some up.

18 inches is small, but as long as it was cut less than a month ago, the bugs shouldn't have gone into the wood yet. If it was cut more than a month ago, walk away; it is too small. If you're not going to process this wood very soon, you must peel the bark off to stop the worms from eating your wood. Once they go in, they'll ruin the outer 2 inches, which will leave you with nothing more than a handful of violin tops and much bracewood, but no mandolin wood.

The smallest 8 foot section of a log I'll buy is 24", and at that, there is still a crazy amount of waste.

Now that you've got a taste of this, look around further, and you'll find something more suitable from someone more reasonable. When they pull out the Lucci meters and start talking of only cutting the trees under a full moon with dancing virgins keeping Loar's ghost at bay, walk away slowly....

[WoodyMcKenzie]

Thanks again, Mario and Bruce, for the sage advice. I am too curious a person though, and I still want to look at the log myself, since I haven't even seen it. Perhaps I will learn a bit from the experience.

Woody