Raw Hide

[tree]

I first took up guitar in 1971, but have only been playing mando seriously for the last 3 years. Three and a half years ago I took up the challenge of learning to flatpick the guitar (I realized it would be a long term project), and at about the same time formed a BG gospel band at my church, where I was pushed to pick the mandolin (otherwise there'd be 3 guitars in the band). Long story short, I've got a decent mando now, I've been spending some quality time with it, and have come a long way - I now think I pick the mando at least as good if not slightly better than I do the guitar.

So, when this bluegrass addiction started, the first cd I bought was Bluegrass Rules. Raw Hide immediately became "the impossible dream"; the benchmark of the mando-induced adrenaline high.

Last summer I got a copy of Bill Monroe's 4-cd set from MCA, which contains the original version of Raw Hide. For whatever reason, I was able to figure out where the notes are from Mr. Bill's version, where Mr. Skaggs plays it faster than I can hear.

I have known where the notes are since July. I practice this tune every time I pick up the mando. I still can't play it cleanly with any speed (I have trouble even chopping along with Skagg's version).

My question is, how many of y'all have this tune down to the point where you're proud of it? How long did it take you to get there?

[John Flynn]

I prefer the Blues Brothers' version. I have no problem playing that! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

When you can play it like Monroe's orig version...then heck with everyone else...anything else is a perversion

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

I've been playing the mandolin for over 30 years, and I cannot play Rawhide. My style is pretty different from Bill's, but I also never really worked on the tune either. Instead of wasting time on a tune that just isn't working, I prefer to learn tunes and techniques that I can learn and use.

[wallflower]

Imagine your just brushing the strings with the pick (use the shoulder of the pick) and keep a very, very loose wrist. #Then let 'er rip!

[Peter Hackman]

When you can play it like Monroe's orig version...then heck with everyone else...anything else is a perversion
Monroe's later versions, on various live recordings,
are nowhere near the original, which is much more refined,
with a segment in the higher octave as an added bonus.


I used to play it and I added my own touches, of course -
the first step was abstraction, 16 bar blues with
an "I got rhythm" bridge, the next, fragments of
whatever melody there is, and between them my own variations,
more blue notes, and more melodic detail, for instance.

I never saw the point in playing ultra-fast. Unless
you hear very fast and possess a monstrous technique
you'll get stuck in rigid rhythmic patterns
and phrases dictated by your fingers rather than you ears.

[J. Mark Lane]

I never saw the point in playing ultra-fast. Unless
you hear very fast and possess a monstrous technique
you'll get stuck in rigid rhythmic patterns
and phrases dictated by your fingers rather than you ears.
Ahhh. Somehow, it strikes me that these are very wise words. And very often ignored. Especially in "contemporary bluegrass."

FWIW, which ain't much, I've been playing mandolin for about two years (taking into account a six month break when my daughter was born), and Rawhide isn't even on my list of tunes to learn...yet. Maybe next year.

For those of you who have done it...whayasay, is Rawhide harder than Brilliancy? <g>

Mark

[Christopher Howard-Williams]

I was quite surprised at how quickly I got to a fairly presentable version of Rawhide. I found for this one that most of the difficulty is in the RIGHT hand technique rather than the left hand fingering.

[AlanN]

One interesting version is by Marty Stuart, where he jumps to different doublestop inversions over the C/F change. Also Dempsey Young plays it differently, on the bridge he gets a banjo thing going.

[evanreilly]

I get asked to play 'Hide a lot. My usual response is: 'can your back it up good? do you put in the stops?'... Nowadays, my version resembles the 'later' Monroe renderings of the tune... lots of shuffly oouble-stops.... I've never been able to exactly dublicate the open string thing he gets on the high break on the original recording.
Now that banjo break on the original is not too shabby either!!

[Peter Hackman]

For those of you who have done it...whayasay, is Rawhide harder than Brilliancy? <g>

Mark
Depends on your ambition with the first song, how
much detail and variation you want in it.

However, Brilliancy is a tune that is ALL detail,
with no repeated notes,
probably the first fiddle tune that I
learned and really tried
to get EVERY note right (in the mid-60's,
from Howdy Forrester's recording).
I would say it's the harder tune.

In my bluegrass
days Raw Hide, Brilliancy, and the Orange Blossom Special
were my featured mando numbers, and the ones most sure
to excite the audience.

[wallflower]

Brilliancy is difficult, but so is Rawhide. #Brilliancy is more of a challenge for the left hand.

[tree]

Thanks for the responses. I guess I'll take the Larry Byrd approach and work my butt off until I get it down right.

One interesting factoid - I recognized Mr. Bill 's run on Back Up And Push (which is a little slower than Raw Hide) as the same run in Raw Hide. That was a huge first step in figuring out where the notes are.

[Mando4Life]

I remember reading somewhere a quote by a famous mandolin player to the effect of "..Rawhide is the toughest tune a mandolin player can TRY to play..."

I've got several versions of it on CD and my favorite is still Mr. Monroe....although Marty can pick the heck out of it too.

WBL

[Tom C]

For those of you who have done it...whayasay, is Rawhide harder than Brilliancy?
--Russian Rag

Monroe plays Rawhide at 88mph/DWL. Dotted White Lines on the road being the tempo.

[Peter Hackman]

I get asked to play 'Hide a lot. My usual response is: 'can your back it up good? do you put in the stops?'... Nowadays, my version resembles the 'later' Monroe renderings of the tune... lots of shuffly oouble-stops.... I've never been able to exactly dublicate the open string thing he gets on the high break on the original recording.
Now that banjo break on the original is not too shabby either!!
I believe David Grisman transcribed most of Monroe's
playing on Raw Hide in Frets Magazin, in the late 70's,
including the high segment. I know I've seen it somewhere.

[KevinM]

I'm with you, tree. It's a high mountain I'd like to climb. And I try to climb it a couple times a week figuring one day I might make it past base camp (where I am presently stuck). I'd also like to do a passable Dusty Miller like Bill (the three part, ABC version), the hard part being for me anyway the "B" part, or his solo to "Whitehouse Blues." The plain fact is Bill played some stuff that is technically hard to play because it's so fast. I am hoping to hear Mike Compton's technique for playing fast.

[AlanN]

John Baldry did a nice home-grown transcription of the 1951 Monroe Rawhide, complete with the bark-splitting, piercing high break.

[evanreilly]

Peter:
I suspect the Grisman 'Rawhide' transcription was in the MWN issue with the interview of Monroe. I have the old mags packed away, so can't verify absolutely.
I could be wrong, again....

[AlanN]

Yes, Evan, it's there. And dring the interview, Grisman asks

Grisman: "So Bill, you carved out the name off your mandolin. Did some finish come off too?"

Bill: "Of course it come off."

[Christopher Howard-Williams]

Sam Bush also did it in the Bill Monroe master class video from home spun.
Sam ends up saying "there you are. Rawhide. The best mandolin tune ever wirtten" - or some such thing.
(Dusty Miller is on that tape too.)

[luckylarue]

Ronnie McCoury does it on his Homespun video as well.

I am in the process of learning it myself. I have always loved the tune but i have never felt an urge to learn it myself. But i am excepting the challenge.

[fatt-dad]

Having never played it and to make this thread complete, HERE's (http://www.mandozine.com/music/search_results.php?searchfor=rawhide&tuneselectby=C&mandolevel=&category=&songkey=&artist=&transcriber=&sortby=T&sortorder=A&submit=Find+TableEdit+Files) the search results for tab files at www.mandozine.com. I tried the "advanced" version by Jethro and can really see that it will take some practice. That said, I'm going to try to work it up. Then again, I have no back up band (but my dog will notice when it gets presentable - ha).

f-d

[Spruce]

So is that a "mistake" when Bill comes in a half-bar early after his first break on the solo on the original recording??
Sure sounds like a clam to me... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I think that Ricky duplicated this clam on "Bluegrass Rules"....
I took it as sort of a tribute....

[KevinM]

Xtopher - Sam leaves off the "B" part (drives me crazy...) in his video- when they switch back to Bill playing he of course goes promptly into it (further driving me crazy).

[Christopher Howard-Williams]

Yes, KevinM, I remember that now. On the high part I just nurdle around the chord shapes up the neck and let my right hand do all the work!!!

[tree]

Well I've been at home with a NASTY case of bronchitis this week and estimate I've spent 6 or 8 feverish hours woodshedding on this one tune. I can see improvement, although I still have lots of polishing left to do.

One of my breakthroughs was in discovering that if I really bear down and pick fast and solid with the right hand, my left hand can almost keep up. Most of my time was spent focusing on making my left hand keep up. I was pleasantly surprised to find out how fast I can get it.

[QUOTE]So is that a "mistake" when Bill comes in a half-bar early after his first break on the solo on the original recording??
Sure sounds like a clam to me...

I honestly can't tell if it's a clam or not - Mr. Bill is like those old blues guys who break time whenever they want to. Why? Because they can.

[Spruce]

Clam or not, it's always fun to listen to live tapes of Rawhide, and listen for that same trade off from the first Monroe solo to the fiddle solo....
Seems like everyone in the band sorta holds their breath waiting to see where the "one" will be on this particular evening...

I just listened to Ricky's version on Bluegrass Rules, and he goes back to the C chord to finish the solo on the last 4 beats...
Which is what Monroe tries to do in the original recording, with the band kinda hanging on the G...
Or at least that's the way I remember it...

I dunno....
If you hear this song in a jam, most of the time the song hangs in G to end the solos, no?

I think Mr. Bill wanted it to go to C....

[Darryl Wolfe]

I personally don't hear a mistake/timing jump by Bill in the original recording

[Spruce]

I finally found my copy of "BG Instrumentals" and am listening to Rawhide now...

"I personally don't hear a mistake/timing jump by Bill in the original recording "

So you would tag the B-part with 4 beats of C?
Because that's what Bill (and Ricky) are doing...

I've always heard that as a "mistake", but if that's the way the man wants it played maybe that's the way we should be playing it...

Maybe I'm lost here and you guys are all playing it that way, but it sure seems to me that in a typical jam you hang on the G chord for dear life to lead into the next solo...

[Darryl Wolfe]

I guess I'm gonna have to get it out and listen with an open mind..will get back

[Peter Hackman]

I haven't heard the record for many years but
the way I remember it
both Rudy Lyle and
Red Taylor play a G7 followed by the same with an augmented 5th. At least it's altered.

I decided to give up for a while on this tune. Its not really a worth while thing for me. I am now practicing Ill meet you in church Sunday Morning, Doyles little lead. Its found on www.mandozine.com if you are interested.

[tree]

So you would tag the B-part with 4 beats of C?
Because that's what Bill (and Ricky) are doing...

I think they (BGB original version and RS/KT Bluegrass Rules) only do that one time, at the end of the first time through, when the mando gets a bit of a rest. #After that, the other instruments end their breaks with the rhythm stopping on the first beat of the G in each of the 2 bars of G.

That's how I hear it, anyway. #I figure Mr. Bill got a little tired, and maybe threw in the odd timing because, well, they would do it his way if he wanted them to.

[jmcgann]

Before you give up, consider playing it SLOW. I mean SLOW. Consider playing it SLOW. I mean SLOW. Consider playing it SLOW. I mean SLOW. Consider playing it SLOW. I mean SLOW. Consider playing it SLOW. I mean SLOW.

Now, seriously, you are probably just troing to play it too fast. with the SlowDowner software (where the hell was THAT 30 years ago!) you can bring it to a nice, manageable speed.

Playing fast is the same as playing slow, but faster. Make it sound good and be sure your hands are working right Technique Tips (http://www.johnmcgann.com/techtips.html)
If you can play ANYTHING, you can play ANYTHING. No lie.

[tree]

Big milestone for me - I stood up at the monthly BG jam in downtown Union, SC last night and led 'em through a reasonable rendition of this tune, in front of a pretty good crowd of people. #My knees were knocking together and I noticed that I was whaling my poor little F5-G much harder than normal (probably adrenaline - next time I will make a conscious effort to play more lightly, but I have to admit, the instrument itself responded marvelously. #The player still needs to work on his technique, but his mando didn't back down a bit). #But, I DID manage to get through both the entry and exit breaks without screwing anything up too bad. #Yeeeehaaa! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[davestem]

To answer the "how long" question: Steve Kaufman mentioned on his "Picking Up Speed" dvd (for guitar) that it took him 3 years from the time he learned the notes 'til he could play Big Mon at speed.

[Moose]

"...a tribute." - Probably!. Someone posted the date "1951" above ; Yep!!, and here's the scoop(Rosenberg): Recordrd: January 20, 1951, 10:30 am to 2:00pm ; personnel: Bill Monroe/mandolin ; Jimmy Martin/guitar ; Rudy Lyle/banjo ; "Red" Taylor/fiddle ; Joel Price/bass. I believe(!?) THAT was the number the All-Star Band broke out with at Mr.Monroe's funeral - at the urging of Marty Stuart! - (am I correct, Evan??)- I suspect Mr. Monroe woulda' been proud of the "send off". http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[evanreilly]

I believe there was a group rendition of 'Hide at the memorial service for WSM.

[Moose]

Yes! - ...at the memorial service." - Thanks for the correction ; Obviously wouldn't have been appropriate for the funeral!!## http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif