gold fretwire

[MandolinTim]

hi everybody,
where can you get gold fretwire for mandolin?
all I can find is nickel/silver
thanks,
MandolinTim http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[davestem]

Ha!

[John Bertotti]

Copper compund fret wire (http://www.warmoth.com/supplies/supplies.cfm?fuseaction=fretwire)


This may be to big .090wx.055h they may know how to get smaller though. John


Out of curiosity has anyone used an alternative compound for mandolin frets other then stainless? Thanks John

Actually after looking at the stemac fret wire this may work.
Stew Macs is .090hx.053w with a crown of.038
LMII is # # # # #.090hx.056w with a crown of.032

Just an fyi. John

[artdeco]

The gold (bronze)fretwire looks interesting. When I emailed Warmoth to ask what the tang width was (couldn't find that info on the site) they replied "We do not have that fact available to us--sorry." What's up with that???

[John Bertotti]

I emailed them also with that question and informed the that it was a current topic of conversation here. I asked them to respond to me or to this thread directly and that anything they sent to me I would share here. We'll see. John

[ShaneJ]

Other than the tang width question (unknown so far), it looks like perfect mando fret wire. I like gold hardware much better than silver, and have often wished I could find gold colored fret wire. It seems a bit pricey though - over $20 for a neck's worth. I assume they are talking enough for a guitar neck. Anyone have any idea how many inches that adds up to?

[Michael Lewis]

You will need between 2 and 3 feet of fret wire for a mandolin.

[Paul Hostetter]

There are several outfits globally who process wire, in the US, Japan, Holland and probably elsewhere.

The gold color of brass wire comes with two major drawbacks: 1) it oxidizes real fast and doesn't look "gold" for very long, and 2) as mentioned, it's quite soft. The frets will wear out.

The part of the alloy that makes frets wear best is nickel, that's the component that makes frets silver in color as well. Nickel content is what you need. The better frets have 18-20% nickel in them.

You can get ceramic frets. I've only seen them in white, but I bet other colors are possible. The white ones run about $20 per fret and require pretty tricky tooling to accept the fret.

[John Flynn]

Paul: What is the advantage to the ceramic frets? Also, do you have a link where one could find more info on them?

[Paul Hostetter]

I think ceramic frets are for He Who Has Everything and still needs more. They are literally a high-tech and high-fired ceramic, preshaped and end-dressed for a specific board. Contact Rick Turner at Renaissance Guitars here in Santa Cruz, he's been doing a few guitars with them, so he actually has developed the tooling for installing them (you can't pound them into a slot with a hammer). http://www.renaissanceguitars.com/

No one has marketed frets yet in Unobtainium, so the purpose of ceramic frets is to fill the void until then. Or maybe it's just about art, which is AOK with me.

[Rob Powell]

I'm sure this has probably come up before but I'll stick it out there and take a pounding for not knowing what I'm talking about http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Anyone know of an attempt to make bone frets?

--Rob the clueless

[Paul Hostetter]

Bone and ivory have both been used on the over-body frets of baroque lutes and guitars. These were simply strips or bars of appropriate height glued to the surface. I play laouto which also uses these kind of frets, mine are in tortoiseshell.

One could conceivably install bone stock set into a slot like a bar fret. Danny Ferrington has done this with ebony frets in an ebony board on some electric basses, really low frets that result in a cross between fretted and fretless. None of these would qualify as very durable except perhaps with nylon or gut strings, or very soft strings like flatwounds often used on electric basses.

[John Bertotti]

Here is another thought. How about the corian used in counter tops. I see some use it in nuts and some bridge saddles why not frets? Is it hard enough? John

[Paul Hostetter]

I should think it would almost as hard as bone, but it has a major drawback: it's brittle, and chips and abrades probably a bit too easily. But it comes in some wacky colors. For the right instrument, it could be fun.

[artdeco]

How about we plate them with Titanium Nitride. It's a gold color and harder than the proverbial hobbs.

[Paul Hostetter]

Can you plated the frets after they're installed? Just dressing the crowns and ends during installation would wreak havoc with the plating.

[artdeco]

Plating would actually not be any more practical than ceramic frets. You would have to finish them before plating and install after. I guess you could take a grinder to ceramic frets to dress them - not so with any kind of plating.

[John Bertotti]

Here is the reply from the above gold colored fret company. Anyone know this luthier? John

Hi John,

I'm forwarding this to our luthier, Brian Goode, hopefully he will have
a response for you soon.##

Best regards,

Dan Allen
Warmoth Guitar Products, Inc.

[ShaneJ]

You will need between 2 and 3 feet of fret wire for a mandolin.
Thanks, Michael. How much fret wire for a guitar neck? That's how they are selling it - by the "neck". All of their stuff is for guitars, so I assume they are talking guitar necks. I'm sure it'd be enough for a mando, but I was wondering if it would be enough for 1.5 or 2 mando necks, etc. - trying to guage their price vs. others sold by the foot.

[krishna]

Since no one else has said it ,I will. These frets sound like a joke. O.K.,so they frets are real . The bottom line is what is their Rockwell Hardness??? #And if you are not interested in the answer to this question,then I have some fretwire to sell you that I made myself that I made out of solder. Are you planning on getting yor mandolin refretted every year? Regular Nickle-Silver frets only last most players #400 hours playing (maybe) before a partial refret or fret dress is needed.How long will these imitation frets last?...Kerry.

[sunburst]

Just dressing the crowns and ends during installation would wreak havoc with the plating.
There is cobalt plated fret wire. I know people that use it on their instruments and swear up and down that it lasts longer.
I don't see how this is possible...unless the plating process hardens the wire.
Plating can affect the properties of metals, I know this from consulting with metallurgists when I was developing my tailpiece. In order to plate parts for airplanes, a plater has to be certified for aircraft plating, because plating done improperly can cause hardening of the metal and subsequent stress cracks, or some kind of problems.

Gold colored fret wire would be cool to use on instruments with gold plated hardware, and there are probably alloys that would work well. I just don't know enough about metal to be willing to try something like that without knowing what I was getting into.

I wish I could get harder fret wire. There does seem to be a difference in how long frets last now as opposed to the 20s wire, and I get a little tired of explaning that I can't get harder wire when customers frets don't last as long as they think they should.

[Desert Rose]

Just to distill some of the important points

Brass for fretwire is trash, modern instruments with the exception of classical guitars all use 18% nickel silver classical fretwire is 12% and wears FAST and will not produce the tone you will demand out of a mandolin acoustic steel string or banjo

Brass fretwire is FAR softer than the 12% nickel silver.

This is what they build the Chinese Walmart 25 dollar guitars with and thats all they build with it anymore

Plated frets are a fad that will go the way of the dodo for the reasons mentioned

Ceramics...have promise

Stainless steel frets...When you buy those I have some beachfront property in the Gobi desert Ill throw in with the deal http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Scott

[MandolinTim]

hi everybody,
it seems that nobody knows where to find gold fretwire for mando
I've done some research and cant find it anywhere
I guess I'll have to use nickel
thanks,
MandolinTim
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[John Bertotti]

Here is the reply about the gold colored fret wire. I hadn't asked for a hardness but did reply to this email and asked if he would let us know a hardness. He also attached a pic. I actually like the looks of it. Maybe it's just me but if it's close I'd like to try it. Thanks John

[Tom C]

To me gold frets will give the look of old corroded frets from more than 10 feet away.

[Paul Hostetter]

From Warmoths' fretwire page (http://www.warmoth.com/supplies/supplies.cfm?fuseaction=fretwire):


New Gold colored fret wire is a tough copper alloy without Nickel and the color is similar to 12k Gold in appearance. This is not the same brass color as the Warwick wire. This is not just a "plating". It is solid throughout.

Item Number: FW61GD
Width X Height: .090" X .055"
Description: Narrow and quite tall. Good alloy wire works and wears about the same as the standard Nickel/Silver fretwire. Price Per Neck: $24.00

.090" is not "narrow" in my book, but it's not absurdly wide for guitars. I may just buy some to try it. The description is flaky and unhelpful, beyond that. If it's not alloyed with nickel, what *is* it alloyed with? This is more important than some description of hardness, since cuprous alloys work-harden and can be quite different even within the same alloy formula.

[John Bertotti]

Here is the latest.
I am posting it for Brian since the message he received as stated in the email. John


John (and Paul Hostetter) -

Thanks for posting that info!##When I can I'll register on Mandolin Café myself.##

Unfortunately I don't have Rockwell hardness numbers for any of our fretwires.##If I had to guess, I'd say it's number is closer to that of pure copper than the 18% nickel bronze allow our standard fretwire is made of.##

As I understand it our gold-colored wire is nearly nickel-free, though it must be alloyed with something, since it clearly doesn't look (or tarnish) like copper.##We get this from the same manufacturer who makes our stainless wire.##They told us it had practically the same wear properties as nickel-silver, but were not specific about the alloy composition.

Our stainless is definitely tougher and harder than any other frets I know of, except for Rick Turner's crazy ceramic frets.##I have some samples of pre-cut "stainless" frets we got from a Japanese supplier a while back, and our stainless wire scratched the heck out of that stuff (showing that it's much harder).##Our stainless wire is not from the same source as Allied Lutherie's stuff, as far as I know.

Hope this helps!

Sincerely,

Brian Goode
Warmoth Guitar Products, Inc.
Puyallup, WA
253-845-0403
www.warmoth.com

[John Bertotti]

.090w x .055h is wide I was miss reading it to be hight x width. That would have been ideal.

Here is the latest for you metallurgical types. So what do you think? John


Upon a bit more digging, I found the alloy composition:

15% Tin
1%##Iron
.1% Titanium
...with the remainder being Copper.

No Rockwell data is available.

Let me know if this is helpful, and indeed if you can make any judgement about durability from this.

Thanks!

Sincerely,

Brian Goode
Warmoth Guitar Products, Inc.
Puyallup, WA
253-845-0403
www.warmoth.com

Brian when you get signed up let us know if you'll ever have it in mandolin sizes. Thanks John


The latest news is in from Brian.

Ok, last time on the subject. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

After reviewing the available data and talking to the guys in our fret shop, I've determined that our 61G fretwire is actually at least 10% harder than our nickel-silver wire.##Not nearly as tough as stainless, but should be noticeably longer-wearing than nickel-silver.

Sincerely,

Brian Goode
Warmoth Guitar Products, Inc.
Puyallup, WA
253-845-0403
www.warmoth.com

[MandolinTim]

hi everybody,
I think I'll still go with the "old standby"
although it would be interesting to see a mandolin with the larger gold
fretwire, something like Tacoma I s'pose?
anyway,
thanks
MandolinTim

[Paul Hostetter]

Brian at Warmoth just wrote again:

Brian Goode wrote:

> Paul -
>
> Upon a bit more digging, I found the alloy composition:
>
> 15% tin
> 1% iron
> .1% titanium ...with the remainder being copper.
>
> No Rockwell data is available.
>
> Let me know if this is helpful, and indeed if you can make any
> judgment about durability from this.

I wrote him that this was very helpful. With the iron in it (!) it's a really unlikely formula, but thanks to the high tin content, a true bronze nonetheless. The wee bit of titanium would be an anti-oxidant.

I'm very interested in trying it, and think that will be the best test of durability, though it seems quite promising. Now I just have to see about getting it in coil rather than in precut fret-size pieces.

[krishna]

So Paul, does it seem to you that it's possible that it might be the same hardness like he says? He sure wants to have a satisfied customer in you!...Kerry

[Paul Hostetter]

He's been great. His latest communiqué indicates they think the "61G fretwire is actually at least 10% harder than our nickel-silver wire. Not nearly as tough as stainless, but should be noticeably longer-wearing than nickel-silver." We shall see. I'll just get some and try it. The color part alone is pretty intriguing.

[ShaneJ]

Is the .055" height the crown height (the visible part of the fret when installed), or the total height including the tang? It must be the crown, because the typical tang is about .052 - .060". If so, that would make the frets a little bit fatter and taller than StewMac's "Narrow/medium" fretwire - probably pretty similar to some of the "oversized" frets on some mandos today. If we can confirm the .055" to be the crown height, I'll be ordering some to try. I think the gold color will look great with gold hardware. If it's a little more durable, that'll be a bonus.

[John Bertotti]

I am wondering how well one of the fret sizers would work on this material. It would be nice if it was a bit narrower. John

[artdeco]

We still don't know what the tang width is.

[Paul Hostetter]

The tang width was right on the readout of that Mitutoyo caliper:

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/uploads/post-7-34416-goldtang.jpg_369x300_pixels.jpg

Again: Width X *crown* Height: .090" X .055" - in my book this a pretty beefy guitar fret, a really nice size actually. Too big for mandolin (or is it?). The standard Martin guitar fret is the Dunlop 6230, which Warmoth sells as their *smallest* wire; it has dimensions of .080" wide X .043" tall.

There's a link to Warmoths' fretwire page above. It answers all these questions.

[Michael Lewis]

It would not be too difficult to "re size" that wire with a fresh file. Just a few strokes along the sides would take the width down to regular guitar size (jumbo mandolin ).

[artdeco]

According to my Mark's Engineering handbook Iron is not an unusual component of Cupronickel alloys. It is used to make tubing. It is the Titanium that's really unusual. I wonder if that's where the claims for hardness and durability come from. At any rate, I'm ready to give it atry.

[Paul Hostetter]

But this isn't really a cupronickel alloy, because it has no nickel. Mostly just tin.

Brian Goode at Warmoth just wrote again and said:


As far as hardness of the fretwires goes, our 61g fretwire is rated at HV 230 and our stainless is HV 250. Our 18% nickel-silver wire is not explicitly rated for hardness, but extrapolating from the other data I have found, I'd put it around HV 170.

Michael, you seem to think altering frets is easy. How much would you charge to hand-thin a set of frets for a mandolin, so they all looked nice and like they really matched?

[Bob A]

Beergeek - I have a classical guitar with bone frets. It looks weird, but the fretboard is very fast, and the tone is interesting - there's no change from the "open string" sound to a fretted note.

It was made in the 60s by a Korean luthier, and owned by Sophocles Pappas in Washington DC, who was rather influential in getting recognition for the classical guitar.

It has been mentioned to me that Pappas was concerned about eliminating as much metal as possible in guitar construction. The tuners are metal, but they are individual rather than 3-on-a-plate.

Each of these frets is about as thick as the guitar nut. I suspect that the technique wouldn't work for a mandolin, due to the size problem. And of course the guitar is strung with nylon, not metal wire. You could probably get away with it for a baroque gut-strung mandolin.

[Michael Lewis]

Paul, as long as the wire is in longer pieces and not cut into individual frets it should be fairly straight forward. I have resized both standard nickel and stainless fretwire, but that wire comes on a roll and is fairly easy to handle. It just takes about a pound of elbow grease, a steady hand, and a fresh file. Lay the wire on your bench with the side of the crown facing up, and gently but firmly file away at as evenly as you can, then flip it over and do the other side.

[John Bertotti]

Paul, Any luck in arranging to order in other then precut guitar neck quantities?
I also wonder how maeleable this stuff is? Could the crown be cold pressed into a different shape? If it is a bronze alloy wouldn't it be work hardened anyway? John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Paul Hostetter]

He said it only comes in 18" strips, so that's doable, even if it's really too large for anything but a guitar. I also get the feeling this stuff comes from an entirely different supplier than Dunlop.

Most fretwire comes really work-hardened, and I wouldn't want it any other way. That alone would preclude chasing the crown into any other shape. In any event, one thing I aspire to is a consistent clean reveal on the frets, so the less I mess with them, the better.

[Gavin Baird]

Just did a refret on a guitar I built in '87 and compared the filing feel of the old fret to the material I am now using from Dunlop. Quite a difference, the old material is much harder while the new "Stuff" files like butter...Think I will go to stainless...G

[Paul Hostetter]

1987 is not very long ago. Where was that fretwire from? About the only game in town in '87 was either Dunlop or maybe Horton-Angell, which was worse. Try the Japanese stuff Stew-Mac sells, it's quite a step up.

[Greenmando]

Years ago I was given a alloy to play with, it was "new gold". No gold content but it had similar properties as far as color and resistance to oxidation. It was supposed to be much harder than 18k. gold which is not saying much when we know gold is pretty soft. It was for casting but I wonder if it could be rolled out to shape and gain some hardness? I'll look for some more info on it anyway.

[Paul Hostetter]

You do that. There's an alloy called "Dix gold" that pretty much matches that description. Never saw it in any form other than sheet and castable pellets.

[John Bertotti]

Thanks Paul. Did he mention the cost of the 18 inch piece? John

[Paul Hostetter]

At the top of this page is a link to Warmoths' fretwire page, it's all there. They sell it by a "neck's worth" which is probably 3 strips. $25 minimum order, so their $24 bundle costs $25, plus $8-something for shipping. Very expensive frets, we'll see if they're worth it.

[artdeco]

Just received my order of gold fretwire from Warmoth. This stuff is beautiful. I'll have to see if we still have our Rockwell tester out in the shop somewhere and give a report. There are 4 29" long, pre-radiused strips. Should be enough for a couple of mandolins.

[Paul Hostetter]

Brian Goode at Warmoth just dropped me a note saying:

I saw you said on the forum that the wire comes in 18" strips. What I said was that it comes in half-coil lengths, from coils that are about 18" across. Circumference = pi x diameter, therefore the length of each half-coil piece is around 18" x 3.14159265 / 2 or 28.27". This is consistent with the forum member who received some and said the pieces were 29" long.

I was confused and was perhaps remembering that Dunlop wire used to come in tubes of straights that were about 18" long. While we’re at it, Brian also wrote this the other day:

As far as hardness of the fretwires goes, our 61g fretwire is rated at HV 230 and our stainless is HV 250. Our 18% nickel-silver wire is not explicitly rated for hardness, but extrapolating from the other data I have found, I'd put it around HV 170.

There.

[sunburst]

I just got a mandolin that I built 3 years ago in for frets. I ordered SS wire, because the owner wants a harder wire. I'll have to file it down like Michael mentioned, because the owner doesn't want wider frets.
While I was on the phone with Allied lutherie, I asked about the possibility of mandolin sized SS wire. The guy said they were thinking about it, but it was sort of dependent on demand whether or not the manufacturer would consider it. I said there seemed to be demand on the Cafe, so...next time you're on the phone with Allied tell them you want mando sized SS frets and maybe they'll perceive a demand!

[MandolinTim]

hi everybody,
let me know if anyone builds a mandolin with that gold fretwire.
I might try it (maybe #002 or 3?) although I might file them down to
a more managable size, who knows?
thanks,
MandolinTim

[Paul Hostetter]

I just got my gold wire today. As expected from the published specs, it's pretty big, which is fine with me. I might well use it on a mandolin for myself, but can't imagine most customers of mine ever wanting it. Perhaps if it takes off as a guitar wire, the mamufacturers will see fit to produce a smaller size for mandolins.

[Michael Lewis]

Paul, how does it file compared to standard 18% nickel wire? Is it noticeably harder or significantly harder? Filing on bronze usually feels like it isn't cutting but look for the filings as a guide to whether it is cutting or not.

[sunburst]

UPS just brought me my SS fret wire from Allied.
The mandolin I'm re-fretting is owned by a guy who plays bluegrass, and plays it hard. There is noticable fret wear up to the 13th fret from the three years he's had it. This should be a good test to see if it lasts longer.

Actually, I have another mandolin in for frets right now. I'm thinking of using the SS on it too because the size matches the original frets so well. I'm trying to decide if the quality of the instrument merits the extra work...it's not one of mine...looks like it says "Collings" on the head stock?? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[sunburst]

Update.

Both fret jobs are done.
The SS is noticably harder. It was easy to tell from the first length I clipped off. It feels stiffer, the fret tang nipper is harder to squeeze, it's harder to adjust the radius to the board, but it needs to be done because it doesn't conform to the curve as well as standard wire when you drive it in.

Filing down the fret ends seemed to take longer more than other tasks seemed to take longer. Re-crowning after leveling was no real problem, but getting a good looking finish took more work and time.
The job took parts of three days, working between interuptions and doing other things, so I didn't get a good feel for how much longer it took, but it did take longer.
No tools damaged.

The owner doesn't have the mandolin back yet, so I don't have his reaction to any sound difference, but I got one "real" mandolin player to play it, and he said it sounded great.

I decided not to use the SS in the Collings. It was a partial re-fret, and the color and hardness differences could have been a problem, and I didn't want the extra work.
This Collings will be for sale...the owner finally reached the end of Gilchrist's waiting list, so, no surprises for whoever ends up with it and might have found out later that he/she had mixed fret wire.

[John Bertotti]

Paul Have you used this fret wire yet. I'm still curious on its workability and your impressions.
Sunburst thanks for the SS update.
Thanks John

[Paul Hostetter]

Alas, I haven't - yet, but I'm sure I will. I have some potential instruments to try them on, but I'd never know how the stuff panned out under serious use. I need someone in my closer circle for that. I had one good player ready to be a conspirator in the experiment but he chickened out! I don't have any personal instrument that needs frets right now at all, so I'm waiting for some likely prospect to appear. If someone doesn't show up soon, they're going in a big mandole I'm working on.

[sunburst]

One more update.
The owner of the mando now sporting SS frets says it sounds fine. If there's a difference, he thinks the notes might not be as crisp, possibly a little muddier sound, but he thinks it's probably the sound of the place he's been playing rather than the mandolin itself.
Basically, no real change in sound.

[Paul Hostetter]

I wouldn't imagine the stainless wire would account for any difference in sound, I think what most people hope it'll do is last longer.

[sunburst]

That's certainly what I hope. But whenever something's different, someone asks; "what will it sound like?", well, now I have an answer; "About the same."
I recon it'll be a couple of years before I know if it lasts longer.