My timing really sucks!

[Bluegrasstjej]

In December I recorded myself playing St Anne's reel along with the metronome. It sounded great. So now when I have also learned how to add different tracks (so I can add back-up and harmonies), I recorded the metronome beats, then myself playing Sally Goodin. It was a nightmare listening to it! Just simply awful. It didn't sound better when I added my back-up chops. I concentrate too much on the melody and too little on the metronome beats. I hope it can get better with practice!
I've never understood how the metronome teaches you timing. Doesn't it make you dependent on the metronome instead of the guitar back-up? Or do you really think playing with a metronome makes the timing move from the metronome to your body so you just know the right timing anyway? What are your experiences? Your thoughts about it? It's strange because I've never sounded this bad when I've played with a guitar, not even as a beginner-beginner.

[phynie]

I would suggest tapping your foot with the metronome. Eventually, you will be able to keep time without the metronome and just your foot. When I converted from guitar I had a little trouble too. I think it has to do with the fact that I was emphasizing different beats on the mandolin. Not sure.

[Ken Sager]

I once picked with this poor fellow in a jam who couldn't chop or pick in time to save his life. At first I thought he was just being creative, then quickly realized he was definitely marching to the beat of some strangely timed metronome... He couldn't sing on key, either.

Neither of these "shortcomings" kept him from playing and singing his heart out. He was obviously having more fun than anybody else at the jam, and dammit, that's what it's all about.

I'd suggest first singing it, while clapping your hands or stomping a foot in time with the metronome. If you can sing it in time you'll be more likely to pick it in time, too.

Love to all,
Ken

[mandofiddle]

How fast do you have your metronome set at? If you're having to concentrate on the melody too hard, then it might be too fast. You said St. Anne's Reel sounded good in December when you recorded it? Possibly because you knew the tune better, and therefore could concentrate more on the metronome and timing.

It might not seem like the metronome is doing a whole lot now, but it is. Its one of those things that one day will just hit you head on, when you realize it actually HAS been helping... You may not see the baby steps, but you'll see more of the overall picture further down the road.

[Bluegrasstjej]

Ken: you are so right, that it's all about having fun. You're a bunch of people who make me realize I have to do something I've always thought impossible: learn to tap the foot and play the mandolin at the same time. This will be really interesting.

Yes, both St Anne's and Soldier's joy which I've recorded too, are tunes I've played very much, so it may have to do with that. I'll try to record those again with back-up and all to see how they sound now.

I'll try to hang in there.

[pklima]

You can practice with a metronome without relying on it. First, set it to beat on two and four so you'll be responsible for one and three yourself. Once you're comfortable with that, set it to beat on four only. Then four every other measure. Then four every four measures, if your metronome will go slow enough. This is an old bassist trick - it forces you to find the beats yourself but lets you know once in a while if your tempo is drifting.

[sunburst]

I used to be a drummer (semi pro). Please practice with a metronome! I know it's hard. It's hard for me. Actually, I play banjo nowadays, and with my drum experience, I have the reputation of having "rock solid" timing, but if I practice with the metronome it can be a humbling experience. It's pretty easy on the simpler stuff, but when I get to a lick of phrase that is more of a challenge I'll be off the beat slightly when my concentration returns to the timing after the tough part.

You said you didn't have any trouble staying with the rhythm guitar, well, that guitar is being played by a human being. He or she is slowing down and speeding up to keep you with him or her. It's natural and it goes on all the time. Nobody plays perfect rhythm all the time, and in fact it often isn't desirable to play like a machine.

If you practice with a metronome your timing will get better. You'll learn where you tend to speed up or slow down and you'll start to be on the lookout for those situations and get more solid.

As I said, I used to be a drummer. As a drummer I was in control of the timing. I could speed up or slow down the whole band. I could hold the beat and force the other musicians to stay at the right tempo even if they were pushing or dragging. When I started to play banjo in bands, I quickly found out I can't do that anymore. In a Bluegrass band I can only do that if I'm playing bass.
One of the joys of playing bluegrass for me is playing a gig or a session with people who can play in time! Use your metronome. Be one of those people. If I'm ever in a jam session with you I'll appreciate it and I bet others will too.

[mandofiddle]

I hear ya Sunburst. We just swapped out bass players because of timing issues. It's SO refreshing to be in time.

[John S]

You can practice with a metronome without relying on it. #First, set it to beat on two and four so you'll be responsible for one and three yourself. #Once you're comfortable with that, set it to beat on four only. #Then four every other measure. #Then four every four measures, if your metronome will go slow enough. #This is an old bassist trick - it forces you to find the beats yourself but lets you know once in a while if your tempo is drifting.
I think this is great advice. While I think the metronome is indispensable in developing good timing, spending your time concentrating on hitting the notes on the beats can take your attention away from developing an innate steady, relaxed rhythm with your picking hand. And it might even make you tense up a bit too, which is the enemy.

[pickinpox]

Sometimes whole body movement instead of just toe tapping helps.

[bluegrassjack2]

I really believe in playing along with your favorite CDs helps. Then when u get in a 'jam', u will fit right in.

[Bluegrasstjej]

You can practice with a metronome without relying on it. #First, set it to beat on two and four so you'll be responsible for one and three yourself. #Once you're comfortable with that, set it to beat on four only. #Then four every other measure. #Then four every four measures, if your metronome will go slow enough. #This is an old bassist trick - it forces you to find the beats yourself but lets you know once in a while if your tempo is drifting.
I'm not sure I can do this with my metronome. I can set it so it gives a "pling" sound every fourth or every third beat, but there seems to be some problem with my metronome because if I set it like that, it will interrupt quite soon, so now I just have it going continuously which is more difficult since there is no difference between the beats, I mean I can't hear when one measure ends and another one starts. Sounds like great advice though. I've been thinking of buying a tiny electronic metronome to use when I record myself, if they aren't too expensive.

BgJack, I think playing along with CDs is great too, very good. Now I've learned how to slow them down with Windows Media Player, it will be even better because I often feel it is hard to keep up the tempo, even chopping, because it goes so fast.

[GaryM]

I recently got invited by a friend to record one of my tunes with him. A click track was provided for me. It was unusual for me...All I could do was concentrate on sinking with the click the whole time. I guess I did ok...but I was very unhappy with the feel of the music. Next time in I hope I can just play along to the acoustic guitar without the click. I bet there are all sorts of views on this..but I'm thinking, I'd rather play a little off the mark with feeling.
I guess the trick is not to hear the playback!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Martin Jonas]

I'm not sure I can do this with my metronome. I can set it so it gives a "pling" sound every fourth or every third beat, but there seems to be some problem with my metronome because if I set it like that, it will interrupt quite soon, so now I just have it going continuously which is more difficult since there is no difference between the beats, I mean I can't hear when one measure ends and another one starts. Sounds like great advice though. I've been thinking of buying a tiny electronic metronome to use when I record myself, if they aren't too expensive.
There are a number of freeware computer metronomes around. #The one I use is Weird Metronome (http://www.pinkandaint.com/weirdmet.shtml), which can do all sorts of groovy custom beats. #It's also possibly the smallest program download I've ever done: a neat 18.6k! There's another metronome around that doesn't do anything better as far as I can see, but is a 1.2Mb download, almost a thousand times larger. Only problem is that I don't necessarily want to practice in the study, but with my laptop and external speakers (if you have them), I could use it anywhere in the house.

Martin

[sunburst]

I recently got invited by a friend to record one of my tunes with him. A click track was provided for me. It was #unusual for me...All I could do was concentrate on sinking with the click the whole time. I guess I did ok...but I was very unhappy with the feel of the music.
Exactly the reason to practice with a metronome.
I did some recording on a friends album several years ago. When I asked about the possibility of a click track, the engineer said "unless everybody has been practicing with a metronome you don't want a click track".

[Bluegrasstjej]

How do you explain that, Sunburst? Can it be that everyone is so unused to playing along with a mechanical rhythm so that makes the lack of feel in the music?

Martin, THANK YOU!

[Bluegrasstjej]

This place is just weird today, I wasn't finished yet. I wanted to say that I've been thinking that there should be some kind of computer metronome. Sounds awesome, I'm going to try it right away.

[Bluegrasstjej]

Martin, I just downloaded it. It's just what I needed!! It will be great for recording too!! You're an angel (or maybe the folks who created the program are)!

[sunburst]

Bluegrasstjej,
In a word, yes. If you practice with a metronome you gradually get used to it so that you aren't distracted by it. Lots of people don't like a click track in the studio because they loose "feel" because of the distraction of trying to play with the mechanical rhythm.

Listen to some of the older Lonesome River Band albums. I know they used a click track on a lot of that stuff, but I don't hear anything lacking. They are a band tho, and play together all the time. That makes a difference.

Now listen to the Bella Fleck Drive album. In the first cut, "whitewater", notice the tempo at the kickoff and notice the tempo at the end of Sam's mando break. They obviously didn't use a click track. As much as I like that album, I'm always distracted by that tempo change. I hear lots of recorded music that speeds up, some recorded by well known musicians, and some so distracting that I find it hard to listen to.

Whether or not you record with a click track you can benefit from practicing with a metronome. In fact I think it makes the need for a click track less while at the same time making it easier to deal with. You can get a better recording or performance either way, and you can "take it or leave it" if there's a question of whether or not to use a click track.

By the way, I just looked at your member profile and I see you're in Sweden. If you are a native of that country and English is a second language, my complements! I wouldn't have known, and I hope I've used clear enough language to be easilly understood by those who are not native English speakers.

[Mike Bunting]

Bob Wills used to like to have the tempo gradually increase over the length of the tune. He said that otherwise the dancers would feel that the band was slowing down or dragging.

[TonyP.]

I'm so glad to see so many singing praise of the metronome as opposed to playing with albums and Band In a Box. It truly is steps. The metronome first and the others mixed in. A pefect example is our guitar player. He always complains that he has a break down with BIB but then screws up with us. BIB and albums you can fudge the beat because there is so much going on there, multi beats, metronome no way. Like anything else it's frustrating at first and for me the metronome was THE most frustrating. But it was by far the most rewarding. The 4 T's, timing,tuning,tone,taste.

[Bluegrasstjej]

I'm sorry folks, but I just can't play with the metronome!!! I never experience any timing problems except when I play with a metronome. And I listen at least as much to the bass and guitar as I do to the metronome. I played a few songs yesterday in church to a rhythm guitar, it sounded really good and I had NO problem at all with the timing, more than the night before when I practiced with the metronome.
I get your point that it is rewarding in the end, but if it just frustrates you to a point when you nearly think of giving up music?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif??
How can I learn to play with a metronome?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif All normal people do it, even those who do not know music theory (I think), why can't I do it? I have played for years and know a lot about timing and can play well with rhythm instruments but as soon as I put on the metronome I screw everything up. The thing is, I have no friends to jam with so I have to use a metronome to get a rhythm when I do recordings (I do recordings to learn from, to hear what I'm good at and what I need to work more on).

[Bluegrasstjej]

By the way, what is a band in a box?

[TonyP.]

I hear your frustration, been there, drove crazy at first by it. I'd played for 10yrs on guitar and never experienced a problem until I jumped to mando. What dawns on me is I'm thinking back beat when chopping and then go to downbeat when taking a break. Also there is no "spread" to the rhythm like on guitar, you know where your are playing all the time, there's just the chop. My point being until I started playing mando/BG #none of the music I played was as fast too. I notice this with myself and others when you get to a certain speed things just want to go into thermal runaway, faster and faster. You get into that habit and others follow you and pretty soon I'd re-calibrate and just rush all the time. The thing with the metronome is #1 when you start out do it for 1min, then 3min etc Build up. When I first started I'd got to sleep the longer I'd play to it! I'd go in wide awake, ok, I'm going to get this! and inside of a 1min I'd be nodding. I just went with it and it had the side benefit of helping me to relax when I played. I quit having my right arm tensing up so bad I almost couldn't straighten it. My left hand quit cramping my fingertips quit hurting. Once I had the metronome in me I quit getting so tense and I could flow, way more enjoyable for me. It's funny, there have been some people that have this really weird timing and I'd re-calibrate to play with them and I'd get toxic rhythm and have to go back to the metronome again to get rid of it! Band in a Box is a program for the pc that lets you program a band to play with. All midi sounding, drives me crazy but like I said our guitar player likes it for working out tunes.

[Steve L]

One of the biggest motivators in my going to culinary school was the number of guitar students I had that would tell me that the metronome was throwing their timing off.

Playing with a metronome is like taking batting practice. It's not like hitting in a game, but you work on the mechanics and fundamentals. It's one thing to adjust to real world playing and another to not know what precise time feels like.

There's a lot of great music with non-metronomic time feel...Reggae, old Memphis soul and New Orleans funk just to name a few.

[jeffshuniak]

tappa, tappa, tappa!!! reminds me of the simpsons.
metronomes are awesome, I have been playing some kinda instrument since I was leetle, the metronome dependance..naww...you get used to it.. but I still use it when I learn difficult songs.

[sunburst]

I'm sorry folks, but I just can't play with the metronome!!!
I haven't suggested playing with a metronome, only practicing with a metronome. Anyway, it's not worth driving yourself crazy over. I'd say try it a little at a time, occasionally, not to the point of frustration.

[Bluegrasstjej]

Well, in my case it's nearly the same thing, since my jamming friend gave up the guitar. I can play with CDs of course. Anyway, I'll try just slowing down the pace a bit and see how it goes, and take it in smaller bits too.

[Michael H Geimer]

I played within the same band situation for most of my musical life ... where I was considered the guy with 'suspect timing'. (Listening back on old tapes ... yep. I really sucked eggs)

When I then tried to learn how to play and sing a couple years ago, I knew I I simply had to fix the problem or give up*, and it was through a lot of metronome work ... in small doses, as everyone's saying above ... that I feel I've finally worked through the issue. But, I am still very sensitive about what I consider my personal Achilles Heel. But, it can be done. It's just not a lot fun to work through.

I had some good success getting more comfortable with a metronome by setting it to tap away while I did the dishes. Then I'd hum a tune along with the beats. I could get used to following the time, without the burden of fingerings, and fretting, and alternate picking ... yadda yadda. But I can only stand that for like ... three minutes before it all sounds like water torture! LOL!

- Benig

*I really considered giving up, and looking back ... what a fool I would have been. Please don't ever give up.

[mrmando]

I once picked with this poor fellow in a jam who couldn't chop or pick in time to save his life. At first I thought he was just being creative, then quickly realized he was definitely marching to the beat of some strangely timed metronome... He couldn't sing on key, either.

Neither of these "shortcomings" kept him from playing and singing his heart out. He was obviously having more fun than anybody else at the jam, and dammit, that's what it's all about.
No, jams are not about one person having more fun than anyone else. There don't have to be equal measures of talent, but there should be equal measures of fun. If one person is really stinking it up for everyone else, that person should come to his/her senses, go home, and practice some more -- or find a jam that's more on his/her level. I've been that person (most of us have), so I know whereof I speak. (Why is it that spoons and harmonica are the instruments most often favored by jam-pests?)

It's perfectly possible and acceptable to have the rhythm players keep a steady beat and then to play ahead of or behind the beat, depending on the genre of music or the style of the particular tune. This is much easier to do with a guitar or bass than it is with a metronome -- another reason it's harder to practice with a metronome than with a rhythm section. But if you can play with a metronome, you can play with anything.

Full disclosure: I can't play with a metronome worth beans. Physician, heal thyself...

[Bluegrasstjej]

It's perfectly possible and acceptable to have the rhythm players keep a steady beat and then to play ahead of or behind the beat, depending on the genre of music or the style of the particular tune. This is much easier to do with a guitar or bass than it is with a metronome -- another reason it's harder to practice with a metronome than with a rhythm section. But if you can play with a metronome, you can play with anything.

Full disclosure: I can't play with a metronome worth beans. Physician, heal thyself...
Thanks for just saying it...I met this very good musician in church this weeekend and he also said it's very difficult to play with a metronome. It feels good just hearing people say it.

[Ken Sager]

Neither of these "shortcomings" kept him from playing and singing his heart out. He was obviously having more fun than anybody else at the jam, and dammit, that's what it's all about.
No, jams are not about one person having more fun than anyone else. There don't have to be equal measures of talent, but there should be equal measures of fun. If one person is really stinking it up for everyone else, that person should come to his/her senses, go home, and practice some more -- or find a jam that's more on his/her level. I've been that person (most of us have), so I know whereof I speak. (Why is it that spoons and harmonica are the instruments most often favored by jam-pests?)
Ok, here's my point. The guy was trying, and he was enjoying himself. Did he stink? Yes. Did he make it less fun for everybody else? Probably, maybe not. Did he kill it for everybody else? Absolutely not.

Which of the Jammandments says everybody is entitled to an equal measure of fun at a jam?

There's always a bottom line at every jam... Somebody has to have the least talent and somebody has to have the least fun. Aren't we all responsible for having our own good time? When the least talented person at a jam ruins my good time I'm obviously the one with the problem.

It is about having fun, regardless of whether you can play with a metronome.

Like other learned skills, playing with other people, playing with a metronome, AND having fun require a lot of desire and disciplined practice.

That guy simply had more practice at having fun than playing in time.

Love to all,
Ken

[Bluegrasstjej]

Which of the Jammandments says everybody is entitled to an equal measure of fun at a jam?

There's always a bottom line at every jam... Somebody has to have the least talent and somebody has to have the least fun. Aren't we all responsible for having our own good time? When the least talented person at a jam ruins my good time I'm obviously the one with the problem.

It is about having fun, regardless of whether you can play with a metronome.
Well said, Ken!

I think I start to understand why playing with a metronome is so good. After playing with a metronome the whole weekend, I hear rhythm timing everywhere, even where there shouldn't be any. So I guess it has to build into you! But I will always prefer CDs or back-up instruments. I still can't play with the thing, but everything in my life right now centers around timing, so I guess that's a good start. Timing is my obsession.

[Dan Adams]

How about playing into a tape recorder, or a Tascam 4 Track recorder? Some people use mini-disc, or use computer software. Nothing like hearing yourself come back at you to point out areas of timing that need work. You can always play ryhthm behind the lead with the mandolin or a guitar and make sure the leads fit into the structure of the chords.

Its always great to play with other musicians to work on timing. Learn to play while listening to the back-up rhythm of the guitar and bass. Make sure the lead breaks fit into the chord changes.

So much timing is related to the right hand, or the pick hand being able to keep a constant smooth motion. Working on picking exercises, everybodys favorite pass time, is a good habit to get into when practicing. Use them as warm-up excercises.

We all have trouble with timing, but part of the life of the music is the ebb and flow of a tune, especially whan played live!

Good Luck, Dan

[Dedian]

Wow! I didn't know my timing was soooo far off. Last night I got that weirdmetronome thing that was linked earlier, very helpful. I've been working on Sally Goodin for the project, and it never quite sounded right... Found my problem was my timing! It's probably not for everyone, but it definately helped me!

[Bluegrasstjej]

Yeah, Dedian, metronomes are great to locate a timing problem. When I played with my guitar friend (Irish music) and experienced a timing problem, I always played the same part with the metronome to find out what the problem was.

I wish I had a tape recorder!!! I'm glad to be able to do recordings on the computer though, since it gives much better sound quality. What's a Tascam 4 track recorder?

Benignus, your advice is great! I'll try that. I need to practice singing anyway..

Plinker, I really wish I had back-up instruments to practice with. My biggest problem is that I always play alone. My guitar player quit last year and I really miss her. Anyone who would like to record some guitar/mandolin back-up on any song/tune for me is welcome (preferably on the computer)! When you always play alone you're bound to develop timing problems, since you never have to adjust your playing to someone else. I sometimes play with CDs, but that's all.

I recorded a first version of Sally Goodin and it actually sounds very good, though it's quite slow. I'll try to just chop without recording and hear how it sounds like.

[Michael H Geimer]

" Anyone who would like to record some guitar/mandolin back-up on any song/tune for me is welcome (preferably on the computer)! "

Well, tonight I'm planning to some back-up tracks for the Sally Goodin stuff. But, you might want to head over to the Jay Bucket website. He's a got pretty nice selection of 'play along' stuff, and a bunch of free downloads, too! Though it seems all the free stuff is often in wierd, uncommon keys ... but that's how he's gonna leave you wanting more. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jay Buckey (http://www.jaybuckey.com/)

- Benig

[Dan Adams]

Tascam is a brand name of a multible track cassette recorder. #You can tape a lead, add the back-up, tape another lead, or vocals up to four tracks. #Handy if you don't have an additional rythym player hanging around. #Its all done through head phones, until it is transferred to another recorder. #Than of course you need the mic, a mic stand, etc.. #The total package would run around $200.00, so an expensive proposition for a college student.

A regular cassette is fine for taping yourself, and the mini-disc have the capability of direct transfer to a CD. #I think I'll look into the Audacity? #Tabledit is great if you want to slow tunes down to a speed you're comfortable with, or learn a few measures at a time. #Plus you can play along with the tune. Seems like there a lot of options out there and that includes instruction books with play along CD's. #I still like the live method though.

All That Glitters is not Scrolled, Dan

[mrmando]

Ok, here's my point. The guy was trying, and he was enjoying himself. Did he stink? Yes. Did he make it less fun for everybody else? Probably, maybe not. Did he kill it for everybody else? Absolutely not.
Obviously I can't speak to this particular situation because I wasn't there. If, as you say, this guy didn't kill it for everyone else, then you haven't seen just how annoying a determined jam-pest can be. You haven't seen, for example:

- the clueless spoon player with atrocious timing and absolutely no rhythmic variation who drowned out every other instrument in the lobby at Wintergrass with his monotonous clacking;

- the harmonica-toting drunk who blasted one chord through every song we played -- and he didn't even have a harp in the right key;

- the misguided youth with the cowboy hat and out-of-tune guitar who plowed through a funereal "Rocky Mountain High," taking no notice when everyone else quit playing.

Most jams have some kind of expectation of protocol and courtesy -- if they don't, they're often not worth participating in. Saying it's my fault for not having fun in the above situations is like streaking through my wedding reception and then blaming me for not being amused.