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hotwire
Feb-28-2005, 11:51am
Has anyone had a chance to try Webers new armrest? I've been looking at different armrests and came across their product. It is a combo armrest/tailpiece that will not require clamps. One bonus is that I have a Weber mandolin, so the mounting holes on the tailpiece should line up.It does have a clean look to it. On the down side it's not cheap at around $80. Can anyone give a review? - Thanks

Pete Martin
Feb-28-2005, 11:58am
I have one on an A2 and think it is great.

Billiam
Feb-28-2005, 3:22pm
I put one on my Hyalite. Pic here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=22419).

The stock tailpiece was a little harsh on my arm, and since the Hyalite is unbound and has rounded edges, I wasn't sure that a clamp on rest would have worked easily. The Weber rest wasn't cheap, but it works fine and looks like it belongs there.

Jim Durdin
Feb-28-2005, 9:55pm
Where can I find one for $80? I kept procrastinating and within about one week's time they doubled (or more) on the Weber website and at the distributors. Don't know what all of a sudden made them worth twice as much.

I do like the looks of them though and I think one would be really fine on my Bridger.

take care

jim

ShaneJ
Feb-28-2005, 10:24pm
Wow, I hadn't seen the big price increase. I was planning on getting one. I don't see me paying $180 or $200 for one though.

Pete Martin
Mar-01-2005, 6:25am
Try Elderly Instruments.

Jim Durdin
Mar-01-2005, 10:38pm
I checked Elderly again and the nickel is shown at $180 and the gold at $200.

Just a huge jump. Maybe they sold the initial ones low to see if there was going to be a demand for them.

oh well..... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

take care

jim

LKN2MYIS
Mar-02-2005, 10:00am
If no one buys them at that price, it'll come down.

That's an absurd price for such an item.

Billiam
Mar-02-2005, 3:09pm
Mine's stainless, not plated. Ran an even c-note direct from Weber. Looks like Elderly doesn't stock that version. Same finish as the stock Weber tailpiece that came on my mando. Still expensive, but a good fit for my instrument so I'm OK with that.

Lane Pryce
Mar-02-2005, 3:19pm
Arm rest?$180.00-$200.00??You gotta be kidn me. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Lp

LKN2MYIS
Mar-02-2005, 4:48pm
I hope that they don't become a company that gets so impressed by itself that it just keeps raising prices and eventually goes out of business.

Pete Martin
Mar-03-2005, 11:19am
I bought one 3 weeks ago for $80.00 from Elderly. Call them to see if it is a typo. Maybe I just got lucky.

VernBrekke
Mar-04-2005, 1:18pm
Hi all, I make all of our armrests. At this time, they are made one-by-one with a combination of hand and machine time. When we were not doing that many of them, the impact on my time was pretty minimal. As we began to get more orders, Bruce decided to take a closer look at how much was actually involved in building the little puppies. It was much more than I thought or that would seem apparent.

Since they are both a tailpiece and an armrest the beginning cost to us is a completed tailpiece. A completed tailpiece requires: wax molds, bronze casting, some hand work to adjust the castings, final sanding/buffing and then plating in nickel or gold. We have chosen to have the casting and plating done by domestic companies rather than farm it out to Asia, where it could be done much cheaper. It may not be the best business decision, but one that we feel is important.

Ebony blanks have to be purchased and cut to a general size. The three-step resaw process uses a band saw, a planer and finally a thickness sander. The blank is then cut into the actual armrest shape with two machine processes and one hand process on a belt sander. Our existing tailpiece also has to be adapted to fit the armrest - some machine time and some hand time on a grinder. The “W”, in MOP shell, has to be purchased and cut. The “W” is somewhat delicate to cut and requires a .020 cutter that cuts about .010 of shell per pass. This takes a fair amount of machine time. Then the shell has to be inlaid and the whole armrest assembled to fit a specific style of instrument. The final sanding, buffing and finishing of the armrest also adds labor time. Each individual process may not seem like much, but the cumulative effect adds up to a fair investment of time and equipment.

When you add a percentage for all the general expenses required to maintain a business with employees and a building, the costs began to add up. We also generally sell through our dealer network so what you may pay for an armrest is not what we receive for building it.

Bruce did the math. It didn’t look very good. He made changes. If I can find a way to do the armrests more efficiently with the same quality and aesthetics, the price will go down.


Thanks,

Vern Brekke
Weber Mandolins
Sound To Earth, Ltd.

pathfinder
Mar-04-2005, 2:00pm
Thanks for weighing in, Vern. #Very eloquently described and in very precise detail. #I own six of your fine mandolins and their quality is matched only by Weber's commitment to customer service and accountability. #In this day and age, that deserves congratulations.

JimW
Mar-04-2005, 2:12pm
Mr. Brekke, while I respect Mr. Weber and your positions, I have to ask, was your R&D department that far off when you initially brought this product to market? My God, this is a 250% increase, overnight! I personally don't use this product, and I for sure won't purchase one now at this price, but it's really hard for me to think a successful business can underestimate the cost of a product by this much. I believe it's been on the market for about a year or more and you guys are just now realizing this?

I wish you luck, but I think you're going to have more free time now that you won't be building that many of these tailpiece-armrest combo's, at least at this price-point.

Jim Watts

LKN2MYIS
Mar-04-2005, 2:32pm
Sorry, WAY too expensive. If the reasons given for the armrest cost are truly the corporate justification, than the price of the Weber mandolins should be 3 times greater than they are now: mandolins are MUCH more labor intensive than making an armrest.

As long as people keep paying it to Weber, they'll keep charging it.

(BTW, if they drop the "W" stuff it'll be cheaper - I don't believe any other armrests out there put on initials for advertising, but I'm not sure.)

I'll never spend that kind of money for an armrest. I'll make it myself or modify a violin chin rest.

I have no problem with company's making a fair profit, but I could buy a hand made coffee table for the cost of that hand made armrest.

Mandovt
Mar-04-2005, 3:05pm
I don't think that the price is that out of line.

JAMES MANDOLIN TAILPIECE = 150.00 + standard clip on armrest =$30.00 total $180.00

Plus, with the weber you don't have a clip on armrest that my pop off or scuff the finish on you nice mando.

JUST MHO...

ShaneJ
Mar-04-2005, 3:15pm
I have always wondered why these armrests sold for the same $ as the tailpieces themselves. I planned on buying one because they seemed like a steal as much as a nice product. Now that they cost what they probably should cost, I may not. I don't have any ill feelings towards the good folks at Weber for trying to run a profitable busines though. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Mr. Brekke, would you all consider selling just the cast tailpiece portion of the armrest combo? I'm sure several of us would buy just that and then do the woodwork ourselves. I would.

LKN2MYIS
Mar-04-2005, 3:52pm
Regardless of who makes it, a 3-digit figure for an armrest is ridiculous.

Lee
Mar-04-2005, 4:41pm
Yeah, take the W off, or make it an option.
I snoozed too <sob>
Hey LKN2MYIS, does that hand made coffe table take loop-end or ball-end strings? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

LKN2MYIS
Mar-04-2005, 4:43pm
Lee -
All I'll tell you is that it's a flatback! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

VernBrekke
Mar-04-2005, 7:10pm
We really are a small company. The majority of people who work here are building instruments. So, fortunately or unfortunately, I am the R&D department, the engineering department, the IT department, the facilities maintenance and equipment repair department and I guess, ( by default in this case) the explain why we did it that way department. Since the armrest was my design and project, this price increase would also be my responsibility.

Accessories have not been a major focus for us. In general, they have been designed and intended for our instruments and customers (which is why the armrests have a “W” on them. They are intended to match our pegheads). We show them on our web site so that our customers can see what is available to customize their instruments. We have also tried to accommodate our dealers and others who may not have one of our instruments but would like one of our accessories (I have made custom armrests with no “W” to fit other mandolin brands and some of our armrests do fit other brands without customization. If they do fit however, it is unintended on our part). We don’t actually market accessories as we do our instruments.

The armrests were started because I thought that the clamp-on armrests looked like add-ons, I felt that there might be another way to do them and our tailpiece design seemed to be adaptable to the concept. We had also accumulated finished tailpieces that had scratches or imperfections on the top design that we would not use on our instruments. Rather than throw the tailpieces away, I started building armrests with them with the expectation that we would not sell very many of them per year. The players and dealers that we talked to thought that they were interesting but not something that many people would actually buy. We set the price at the same levels as our other tailpieces because it seemed reasonable at the time.

The last several months, we have been selling more armrests than we expected to sell and have had to start using new mint tailpieces to make them. Unfortunately, tailpieces designed just for the armrest cost us essentially the same price as our standard tailpieces. The armrests are also one of those in-between products. Enough orders now to be significant but not enough to justify an employee or the large scale production that would cut costs.

There will always be products that are useful, functional and possibly even elegant that are not commercially viable. Our armrest, in its present design, may be one of them.

Thanks again for you time,


Vern Brekke
Weber Mandolins
Sound To Earth, Ltd.

BlueMt.
Mar-04-2005, 7:12pm
LKN2MYIS, #I build custom furniture and for the price of a Weber armrest you can probably get one leg of a coffee table. Or were you talking about a custom Walmart coffee table made from the finest imported particle board. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Jim Durdin
Mar-04-2005, 7:50pm
Vern,

Thanks for weighing in and giving us the background on the price change. I'm one of the one's crying over my procrastination. One of the armrest/tailpiece combos would sure have looked good on my Bridger. I just appreciate the instruments you turn out. Thanks. And hoping that, over time, you can figure out how to bring down the costs and therefore the price without it impacting the other work you do. Keep up the good work.

jim

Billiam
Mar-04-2005, 7:57pm
Mr. Brekke,

Thanks for your courteous contributions to the board. Love your job description! Given the prices high-end mandolins command, I'm surprised at the indignation over the price of your nicely made (and as far as I can tell, quite unique) tailpiece/armrest. I'm quite happy with mine. I will admit, thought, that if I'd had the choice of a lower priced version without the inlay I'd have taken it.

Bill

VernBrekke
Mar-07-2005, 3:39pm
Thanks again for the feedback. Bruce and I will take your observations into consideration and will do what we can to accomodate them.

Vern Brekke
Weber Mandolins
Sound To Earth, Ltd.

P.S. Bill: It is a great job. I also work with good people and that makes it even better.

Lee
Mar-07-2005, 4:07pm
Couldn't any other manufacturer make the same type of armrest or is there a patent or copyright of some sort to prevent this?

David M.
Mar-07-2005, 4:22pm
I guess I've never seen the need for any kind of armrest. That's what the tailpiece is to me.

Verne, is it possible to design a cast tailpiece that comes out one piece? It would be cantilevered. This would save the ebony cost, inlay, and assembly time. Make the mold or die insertable and you can cast the tailpiece with or without the arm rest and spread the tooling expense out a bit.

Lee
Mar-07-2005, 4:37pm
That would be one heavy tailpiece, David!

mandroid
Mar-07-2005, 9:51pm
Vern is there a 'W' less variant on those? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

David M.
Mar-08-2005, 9:35am
Lee, I don't think so since the wall section for a cast part isn't NEARLY as thick as the ebony would have to be and. Maybe .080" or .100" max wall section with ribs to strengthen it. Strength of the cantilevered rest would be the issue. I don't think the rest should be as long, either, but I don't use a rest, so I'm probably not a good judge. My arm doesn't lay on the mando body, but on the tailpc.

Lee
Mar-08-2005, 2:11pm
David, you're right, though a cast metal armrest would not be as touchy-feely as wood. Weber will custom tailor the curve of the wood armrest to match your mando, which would not be possible with a one-piece casting.
Aesthetically, I'd opt for no W too, even for use on a Weber.

VernBrekke
Mar-09-2005, 11:56am
I'll talk to Bruce about adding a universal (no "W") armrest option for each of the three standard body styles that we offer. The price of the armrests would reflect that change.

The armrests that I have done in the past, without inlay, were for other brands of instruments. There was less time doing inlay but more time fitting the armrest to the custom body shape so the price was the same as for a standard armrest. It is surprising how much the body shapes vary, in that area of the instrument, from brand to brand.

As for casting them: we have 3 basic body shapes and four sizes of each shape (mandolin, mandola, octave and cello). I make armrests for all the sizes and shapes from the same basic tailpiece casting. So, this change would involve getting either 12 new casting molds or a complex, single mold. Casting molds are expensive. Casting, finishing and plating our current tailpieces is a 12-14 week process (from the time we start making them to the time we have completed tailpieces in house). To ensure that we could get the armrests to a dealer or customer in a reasonable time we would have to keep an inventory of every configuration, which we don’t have to do now. The larger surface area of the armrest would increase the total cost of casting, finishing and plating the armrest and would also generally increase the number of tailpieces that were unusable because of surface defects. The price of the new tailpieces would have to reflect those additional costs. I have tried several two-piece adjustable designs but they were not as elegant and were ultimately more expensive to make than the ones we do now.


Vern Brekke
Weber Mandolins
Sound To Earth, Ltd.

David M.
Mar-09-2005, 12:14pm
Vern, I guess with all the customizing, the casting would definitely be out of the question. I wonder how an injection molded part would cost out if the tooling was amortized w/individual part cost. Maybe a part that could have mold insterts to accommodate the differences in styles. Granted a plastic part wouldn't give the same feel as ebony, but if it's a nice part, it wouldn't be objectionable. I know some great molders to contact, one being about 2 hours south of us in Riverside, Iowa. Great bunch of really creative guys who supply our furniture company with lots of parts and they do all they can do to give good tooling and part costs up front.

Just wondering and offering a suggestion. Thanks. Yall do great work and I love my Yellowstone.

cameron
Mar-09-2005, 11:54pm
There sure is a lot of interest in this WEBER armrest/tailpiece combo! All you have to do is try one before you buy it(wouldn't that be nice) and if the sharp edges on most mandolins bugs you like it does me,you might just have to have one of these things. I think Mr. Vern Brekke has created a very functional piece of art(definition of good art to me is that you never get tired of looking at it/using it;it is always a joy to touch/see). All that aside,I feel like there is something positive tone-wise about this particular type of tailpiece where the strings are anchored at the very South-polar limit of the mandolin. I originally bought one of these armrest/tailpieces to use on my Monroe model(heck,it was built in Montana/maybe even Bruce helped build it;I don't know);but the shallow depth of the Monroe kept it from fitting in that respect although the curvature was a very good fit. I now have that piece of art on my Kimble A-5 style. I just ordered another one of Vern's tp/armrests to use on my '04 Master Model. I hope it fits;but if not I don't think returning it for a refund is out of the question with the excellent folks at Sound to Earth. I ordered the "W" on both of the ones I got because I just think it looks good for one thing;and most mandolin pickers know it's a Weber/Brekke product anyway. I think I am pretty close to having a Flatiron/Weber instrument in my Monroe model(I have played it for 12 years now;and it is a great sounding and playing mando). If I could measure better I'd ask Vern to make me one just for the Monroe. Vern,if you read this,please e-mail me at: cameron@communicomm.com. It is difficult for me to explain why the tp/armrest didn't fit the Monroe.....Regarding the price of this mandolin jewelry....well what can one say about current prices of stuff? PRIORITIES. Other than having a "Grit Laskin" integral armrest built into your mando,I think this armrest/tp is the most comfortable for me;I tend to move my right arm all over the place when I play;the sharp corners on rattle-trap tailpieces can be very uncomfortable.

Lee
Mar-10-2005, 6:14pm
"rattle-trap" tailpiece. That will enter my mandolin vocabulary right in there with "florida" for fingerboard extension.