Learning to play in Third Position

[Christine W]

Ok I just started trying to learn to play in third and I wanted any suggestions. I'm taking blackberry blossom and figuring out how to play it in third and I 'm getting it but it's not smooth. Any advice out there also are there any good practice songs out there. I have some Thile stuff but he is usually all over the neck and I'm still real slow at shifting. I"m working on that with pentatonic (sp?) scales.

How many people here play mostly in first position?
Thanks

[John Flynn]

Christine:

MHO is that "position" is mostly a fiddle concept. Being an old guitar guy, I play all over the neck, but I don't think in terms of positions. I have also had a wide range of great instructors on the mando, including some first class players, and they did not use the concept either, nor have I seen it in any of the instructional materials I have seen.

I try to think in terms of where I need to be to hit the notes I want. I see "positions" as a left hand equivalent of "posting" with the right hand: Perhaps necessary at some point in a players development, but long-term, a limiting concept. I know others feel differently. I posted this opinion once a long time ago and got a lot of disagreent and I respect that. This is just my two cents.

[Christine W]

jflynnstl
Mando Johnny,
Then why do so many people emphasise playing up the neck? I guess what I'm wanting to do is explore the rest of the mandolin. I feel limited just playing in first. Thnaks for your input.

[Jim Garber]

MHO is that "position" is mostly a fiddle concept.
You may not hear of positions in terms of mandolin but they are referred to in many method books. And you will also see them referred to for guitar as well. Merely another way to describe in words and organize study methods. Whether you like it or not, jflynnstl, you are using them, tho informally.

The mandolin does follow the positions sim to the violin. I think it is a way to find your way on the fretboard. BTW I also find it is a great advantage to learn to play without looking constantly at the fretboard, to sort of find the notes in the dark. Helps you play and helps your fluidity as well.

I think playing a tune you know in various positions or keys is a good idea. Play it slow until it feels comfortable.

Jim

[Christine W]

jflynnstl
Mando Johnny,
Then why do so many people emphasise playing up the neck? I guess what I'm wanting to do is explore the rest of the mandolin. I feel limited just playing in first. Thnaks for your input.

[duuuude]

Christine,

I'd say keep working with the pentatonic scales up & down the neck, getting used to the different patterns until they become second nature, then you'll start moving intuitively rather than by thinking about it as much, at least that's how it kinda worked for me.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[John Flynn]

Then why do so many people emphasise playing up the neck? I guess what I'm wanting to do is explore the rest of the mandolin. I feel limited just playing in first. Thanks for your input.
I guess I made myself misunderstood! I do play up the neck, a lot. I just don't think of it in terms of first position, second position, etc. I find that thinking too rigid, too limiting. I think of where the notes are and I go there. If that is a "position" then my concept is that the fingerboard has as many positions as it has frets and I would rather play them than count them.

Some people prefer to follow rules and theories and maps. That's fine, but I prefer to just try to make great sounds. I find that approach is so liberating! Also it has resulted in my making more improvement in the last year than I had in the previous 10!

There was a great poster in a music shop I saw over the dulcimer display: "There ain't no notes on a dulcimer, you 'jus play it." That is a little extreme, but I like it. I play old time and my "mando-mentors" and "mando-heroes" operate that way and that is what I strive to emulate. But again, I respect all paths, I am not saying anyone else is wrong. I just thought you might like an alternative way to think about it.

[Christine W]

jflynnstl
Mando Johnny,
I appreciate your point of view andI lilke the way you think about playing. I am kinda ridgid in the way I think about playing music and I would like to loosen up. I always want to follow the "rules" but in doing that I think I'm limiting my creative process but then on the other hand I think you need the rules, theories and maps to learn the basics and than you can take off and form your own musical map. As of right now I think I'm still to new to music to have much of an opinion on the technical side of playing and I'm relying on others. I gather the info, process it and then throw out what I don't want, so to me the more opinions the better it would be a boring world if we all thought the same.

[jeffshuniak]

hi christine, I have an interval study by beethoven, I think. the composer is missing. its real good, it walks you all over the fingerboard. I would be happy to mail you a copy, but to scan and email, you better not hold your breath, I'm pretty computer dumb. #otherwise, you can just take songs you like and deliberately learn them in 3rd pos.

do you go to school for music
my school only requires first postition for sight reading.

I figure out my scales according to the chord shapes. I do that with the chord voiced everyway possible. root on the bottom then go third then go fifth, then seventh, then sixth. then do all yor relative minors. by consequence of that method, you will get all the positions.
of course, I cant tell you how to learn, but thats what my teacher showed me for learning all the positions.

[Christine W]

Thanks Jeff,
I'll PM you my address.
I would love to go to a school for music. Do you go through a college?

[Ted Eschliman]

Let me pose a philosopical analogy to ponder...
When I'm thumbing through something alphabetical, Phone book, index, dictionary, street maps, etc., I STILL find myself humming that blasted alphabet song. (A,B,C,D,E,F,G,...L,M,N,O,P etc...)
I'm 45 years old, and I still use it as a sort of crutch. Subliminal, but it's there.
I wouldn't call using something I learned as a three-year-old "rigid" in grasping a frame of reference.
The violin "position" strategy works great in the fretless arena, you need all the "reference" you can get there! (Just listen to any beginning violinist...) But I wouldn't throw it out in learning the mando. It can still be a "tool" for some in mentally "indexing" where you are on the fretboard. It also opens up a ton of additional (non-bluegrass) literature in violin pedagogy that can be invaluable in accessing the mandolin's full potential.
Just another tool in the tool box...

[250sc]

When I'm playing I don't think 'positions' but if I'm talking about playing I refer to positions.

[Bluegrasstjej]

Christine: I learned the positions when I took mandolin lessons a few years ago. The first position is what you normally play, starting on an open string. The second position starts on the third fret (I think!), and the third position starts on the fifth fret. Playing on the third position (or any position which is not the first) you HAVE To use the fourth finger. When I learned it, I just simply searched for the notes up the neck and compared them to the notes in the first position, then just memorized the fingering. It was quite easy. I just wish I had continued to play in the third position, I'm really bad at it now.
Rigid or not, I like referring to it as positions, because it makes it easier to learn if you have a name and a systematic method (am I too involved in the academic world or what!!!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )to learn it.
Good luck!

[jeffshuniak]

yes to the school question.
you can get the grants to pay, if you think you cant afford it. your teacher is probably good too. maybe he would help you prepare for your audition.

[jeffshuniak]

to answer the rigid question, I dont think any study is rigid. its good.

[Christine W]

I'll have to look into it. The thought of going to study music has been floating around in my head for a while.

Thanks for everyones input.

[GTison]

christine where / how do you describe 3rd position? I play out of chord positions ( I think anyway) which are moveable around the neck. kinda like playing a scale out of a D chord then moving it up to E and playing the same scale. use scales from things learned in the "1st" position but with closed notes (fingered no open string notes). you can move these up the neck or play melodys "up the neck"

[Christine W]

bowfinger,
Thats basically how I play in third position( I just started last night) and I find it harder that to play in first. I have never played anything up the neck before except for an occational 7th fret pinky stretch. Oh and pentatonic scales oh yeah and ode to a butterfly by THile but other than that its all in first position. I've primarily been playing bluegrass and most of what I"ve come across is in first position. I'm probably making a bigger deal out of this than what it is. I tend to overthink this stuff and in doing so make things allot harder on myself.

[Martin Jonas]

Christine,

I'm still trying to get to grips with it myself, but the second Simon Mayor book/CD ("Mastering The Mandolin") is very good on positions, when to shift, exercises to get your head around closed positions and so on. Give it a try! In the meantime, there is a really lovely simple version of Tennessee Waltz at Nigel Gatherer's site (http://users.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/tunes/tab/tab1/ten.html), which shifts between first and third position very organically, and is a great practice tune to start with.

Martin

[camando]

Christine

I think if you learn all twelve scales in "closed position", so no open strings. You will find playing all over the neck very easy and transposing tunes to other keys really very easy. Think of it in terms of learning "patterns" rather than notes. The pattern rule can be applied to any and all scales or intervals or doublestops as some like to call them. I study with a strict violin teacher who plays mando well. He talks "position" to me all the time. I like to play all over and choose the notes where they sound the best and are easiest to play. Goodluck

Chris in Canada

[jbrwky]

Actually for mandolin, the three positions are Standing, Seated, and my personal favorite, Lying Down.

[fiddle5]

There are some advantages to learning positions not yet mentioned. However it was mentioned that position playing is is a violin / fiddle reference: and yes it is. And since the mandolin ,as we know and love it today, is born from the violin family , #the same concept applies.

there are 4 basic hand shapes to playing in "positions", each handshape is followed by a second hand shape of the same. These two handshapes will complete your Octave (scale) regardless of key and will sequencially move to the next set of handshapes as you go up in scale. this is how a master violinist can play in any position ,any key, or "up the neck" #without careing about anything more than 4 sets of handshapes. These four shapes are as follows:

-0 and 4 are the same except where an open string applies.
-I've indicated the half step by using a small " v " between the finger numbers.


012v3 #012v3

123v4 #123v4

234v1 #234v1

301v2 #301v2


So, there is much more to position playing than meets the eye, if you can master this, you've mastered the entire neck, whether you prefere "Up the Neck" , or "Positions". If you understand this, congradualations having learned proper theory. Its not for everybody, but it still applies, and it works.

There is always more than one way to skin the cat - sorta speak.



mike

[camando]

Fiddle5

That is the best advice! I couldn't think of a way to describe it. That will advance anyone's playing, all over the fretboard. I do all sorts of exercises with 1-2-3 and four fingers based on those shapes. I hope ChristineW puts it to good use.

Chris in Canada

[ohohman]

A great resource is Niles Hokannen's (sp?) "Bluegrass Up the Neck". It even makes sense to ME.

[Christine W]

Thanks guys I'll try this stuff out. It doesn't seem too awfully complicated. I've been working on Blackberry blosson (reworking it in 3rd) and it's comming along.

Fiddle5, Theory has been my downfall every little bit helps thanks.
I can't sem to get a grasp on it. I'm trying though and I'm one of these people that has to know everything about anything I get into.

[jeffshuniak]

BTW Christine, I got a russian iggy here.
check out some russian folk tunes. I borrowed a book from my teacher and the songs are really cool. very very very soulful, many of them miserable... some happy, all of them ,very thoughtful. if you want to try some theory out, these songs should , really any music reading will go along with theory, but these songs are especially nice, I guess thats an opinion. they are sometimes a marriage of italian-esque phrasing with gypsy phrasing. the melodies are often long phrases that beautifully tie the most unlikely chord changes togetheri am really excited about it I could go on all day.

[camando]

jeffshuniak

Any chance we might get some of your favs posted here somewhere? I enjoy playing stuff like that! Thanks

Chris in Canada

p.s. Whats an iggy?

[GTison]

fiddle5 This is very interesting! I've never had any instruction on this so I don't have a clue as to what the numbers mean as related to "hand shapes" could you bread it down? what do the numbers mean? How does that make a Hand shape? How does that lead into the next shape?

[jeffshuniak]

iggy is a heads up.
chirs, I dont know if this stuff is undercopyright. I can mail you something if you like.

[Jim Garber]

Jeff:
What book as there Russian tunes in?

Jim

[Christine W]

jeffshuniak,
Sounds fantastic I I love that kind of music ( must speak to the Ruskie in me). On one of my trips to Chicago I dined at a Russian restaurant and they were playing Russian folk music I could hardly keep up with the conversation because I was too busy listening to the music (and that was before the manolin obbsession). #Do you know of a website to order different kinds of music? By all means #go on all day, fine by me. I don't think anyone else minds either

[fiddle5]

Hi Christine,

The theory really is important, and obviously there is a heck of alot more to it that what I wrote, But there is a method to the madness. And obviously there is more than one way to achieve it. I'm not trying to teach theory, but rather just give an example the benifits of position playing. As you learn your 3rd position, you've learned another set of handshapes and how it applies.

My theory came from learning the violin. There are no frets and #no Tablature. Just simple theory and Standard notation. It takes no more time to learn to read proper sheet music, that can be passed to everyone in the room to read and play, as it does to learn Tab, which only one instrument in the room can play.

If you can get yourself into a good theory study, it will give you not only the skills to better learn your own instrument , but understand the others , and the differences between them , and most important; the tools to move ahead.

Its easy to look at some Superstar Musicians with awe, but what many people choose to ignore, is that that person has studied music, prim and proper,for most of their lives . Its a full time job, and they are presently still learning and will be a student of music for the remainder of their lives. Thats why they keep getting better. This, I would point out, should be a reference of inspiration rather than dispair. See it as what can be achieved with due process. To be blunt; They put in their time , education pays regardless of the industry or market.

anyway, thats my opinion,Good Luck.

mike

[jeffshuniak]

well james , you have shared music with me in the past, christine, you are a Russe. I would be glad to hook you guys up. I would make a public offer for everyone, but I am afraid I would be swamped with requests, ultimetely being unfulfilled,and #me looking like a guy who makes empty promises. so saying this: I am at my parent's shop right now, we have a copy machine, fax machine, all kindsa stuff, 3 ring hole puncher. I can go home in a few, get the book, I will let you know james what the title, author , publ. is.
you guys can email me an address or fax # . other are welcomed, but I cant promise you speedy results. I will copy the whole book by mail, or a couple o tunes by fax.

"great musician's steal" Igor Stravinsky. ha ha. thats not exactly what he meant..... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Christine W]

Thats awesome and most generous!

great musician's steal" Igor Stravinsky. #ha ha. thats not exactly what he meant.....
I prefer the term "sharing" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[fiddle5]

bowfinger.

I can't teach this on a post, but to give you an idea; the numbers represent your fingers (1 = 1st fingers, 2= 2nd ...), if playing in first position, starting on the open G string. Start playing a G major scale. and leave your three fingers down on the string and look at them and the shape you have with you fingers or hand. you will have the shape of : # #0 1 2v3 #- meaning there is a full interval between each note except the 2nd and 3rd finger which is a half step. then move you hand over to the nextnext string, which is D, continue playing the remainder of the G major sclae and once again leave your fingers down to look at. you will see: #0 1 2v3.

So far the handshapes have been : 0 1 2v3 # #0 1 2v3

If you continue to the A string with your G major scale, the next hand shape will be #: 0 1v2 3 #then go to the E string do the same : the hand shape is : 0 1v2 3.

to summarize, you have: 0 1 2v3 # #0 1 2v3 # 0 1v2 3 # 0 1v2 3

If you can see the sequence in this :Great, if not, I don't know what to tell you. Its simply not something that can be said in a hundred words or less.


Mike

[jeffshuniak]

Ok , I am gonna go get the book. be back at 1:00 eastern.

[jeffshuniak]

back #

" a russian songbook"

full piano arrangments,
guitar chords
russian texts in cyrillic and latin alphebet

eglish singing transl. # edited by Rose N Rubin and Michael Stillman. #Dover 0-486-26118-2
Published in association with Miro Music Inc, NY, by Dover Publications Inc. c. 1962,1989

these songs are all easy to read but not scimpy on effect or affect. how do you say? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif we played several of these last friday night at our gig, my guitar friend never played them at all, of course all he had to do was follow the measures with the chords, but still, flawless and fun. they loved them. we are playing a greek-italian place, but the russian music fits in just fine. its that whole of marriage of byzantian tradition with western...