PDA

View Full Version : Recording/Micing Weber Mandolin



jazzgtrl4
Feb-20-2005, 4:36pm
Hello. Im trying to figure out the best way to mic my mandolin for recording here is my setup.

(2) Stereo pair Neumann KM140's >
Grace Designs Lunatec V3 mic pre w/AD Converter >
Digi Design Mbox via the Spdif cable.

Ive tried a few differnt setups with the Neumanns (XY) ect....
one mic near the F holes one mic by the neck but a little farther away. If anyone has any tricks id really like to hear them. Thank alot

Crowder
Feb-20-2005, 6:28pm
I have had more success using a single mic then experimenting with placement. Usually I'll find a sweet spot in the neighborhood of 10-15" from the bridge, maybe favoring the treble F-hole in direction.

Milan Christi
Feb-21-2005, 1:55am
I concur with Crowder. I've tried stereo micing on the mando and I just can't get all the tonal range out of my Yellowstone. Granted - I've never tried the Neumann's - I have MXL 603s. I have two decent mics - an AT-3060 tube and an AT-4033. I place them a bit closer than 15" and I move them up or down, pointed at the bridge, depending on the tone I want for the tune. The tube mic through a tube pre warms the tone to the point you could melt butter with it. The 4033 accentuates the high end a little bit more. I'm anxious to hear if anyone else has a recommendation for stereo micing. I'd like to try it but so far it hasn't worked out for me. That doesn't mean it can't work.
Just my two cents worth.

Milan

jazzgtrl4
Feb-21-2005, 11:58am
Ill try that with the single mic. Do you place it near the bass F hole. I thought i had a good sound with 2 mics not in a stereo config, but one pointing near/at the bass F hole/bridge area and the other pointing in from the neck area to the body!? now i cant get that sound again, weird. Ill have to experiment. Also when you record do you hold the mando away from your body? so it resonates more?

Milan Christi
Feb-22-2005, 1:54am
Do you place it near the bass F hole. .....
but one pointing near/at the bass F hole/bridge area and the other pointing in from the neck area to the body!? now i cant get that sound again, weird.

Also when you record do you hold the mando away from your body? so it resonates more?


I'd have to say it's closer to the lower f-hole but the bottom of the mic doesn't extend below the body.

Yes, I hold the mando away from my body - I use a strap so I'm always (trying) to have the instrument in the same position.

And now you put me in the "experimental" mode - I think I'll try your two-mic setup. But the MXLs I have tend to accentuate the high-end freqs a lot. (Great on the guitar - we'll see what they do to the mando.)

kudzugypsy
Feb-22-2005, 5:15am
well there is certainly nothing wrong with your equipment, that is a great combination. a little more air (ie, space) may help, those neumanns are very sensitive and if you mic to closely, you will get nothing but boom (which you cant fix in the mix). the FIRST thing you must do is decide how the mandolin will sit in the final mix...is this a mando tune, or is it just coloring for the song? this sounds strange, but think how the mando fits in the mix and not how it sounds when tracking...that can make a big difference at mix down.
i cant really tell you how to mic your mando because i've never seen any two mic-ed the same. i've always had best results with one neumann u-87 placed a foot out front, at about chin level.

Pete Martin
Feb-22-2005, 12:59pm
Also try this. #Turn up the headphones and listen to one mic placed about 1 to 4 feet in front of the mando. #Walk around, trying different angles and distances until you find the sweet spot.

A lot of folks also use a second mic placed about head level pointed down toward the mando from around the area of their right ear. #If you do this, check for phase. #I have done this and added in the "ear" mic just a bit for a little room sound. #It is very similar to what we hear when we play. #If you mic in front, our ear never hears that, so it can throw you at first, until you get used to it.

Keep at it and you will eventually find a good way for what you need. Also keep in mind the sound needed in the mix is often not the one that sounds the best when listening to the instrument by itself.

jazzgtrl4
Feb-23-2005, 11:27am
Hi thanks for the responses. Yes these are mando tunes, original stuff, jazz tunes, Italian. Im making a demo for some work. just nylon string guitar and mando. SO i want the mando to be up front. Its doing all the work, melody's solo's...so i want it to sound good. i just picked up a AT-4033. Ive never used that mic but i hear good things about it. So im going to try that as well. Thanks for all the info.

Don Grieser
Feb-23-2005, 12:33pm
One set-up that I like is a small diaphram condenser pointed at the lower f hole or between the lower f hole and the tailpiece. Set up your large diaphram condenser out in front and above the mandolin pointed at the neck body joint. The mic by the f hole gives it some woof, the mic at the neck body gives it some air and high end.

You can hear some samples at our band's website or check the mp3 page here at the cafe for a track.

Let us know what set-up you end up using.

Don
Raising Cane
http://www.caneraising.com

jazzgtrl4
Mar-09-2005, 10:49am
Hi , thanks for your help. Well I tried your setup Don and i liked it. Im using the Neumann km140 pointed down at the lower F hole and the AT 4033 up top pointing down somewhat. That setup going into my Grace Designs Lunatec v3 mic pre A/D coverter into the computer. Anyway what a big open sweet sound! here is a pic of the mic config is this the way you were talking about?

Spruce
Mar-09-2005, 12:15pm
"this sounds strange, but think how the mando fits in the mix and not how it sounds when tracking.."

That's not strange....
That's rule #1...

So is this a recording that features the mandolin, jazzgtrl4?

If "yes", the room becomes critical....

For instance, I can track most instruments in my old Spartan Mansion trailer with it's rounded corners and carpeted floor, but if I instead track the lead instrument or the instrument that I wish to feature in my 32' x 16' x 14' high studio with a SDC 4 inches away from where the neck meets the body, and another mic 4' away to capture the "air" (your KM 140s would work well for this), it really makes that instrument jump out in the mix, especially juxtaposed over the other closed-mic'ed instruments recorded in a tight space...

mandopete
Mar-09-2005, 1:20pm
I like this idea of using two mics - any chance of posting some pictures to see what this looks like?

jazzgtrl4
Mar-09-2005, 1:40pm
Hi, yes this is a recording that features mando. Im recording it in my home studio. I really dont have a sound proof room. maybe im too close to the mics, and doing this all wrong..i cant upload any pics, says the file is too big and i have my camera set to the lowest res.

jazzgtrl4
Mar-09-2005, 3:40pm
Ok, ive been listing to other recordings and my setup sounds a little thin to me now. Ive heard your MP3's Don and i like it...ive heard Grismans stuff and Theile as well as Ronnie and Skaggs, how do i get that sound??? is it there instruments? mic placements? do they do anything in the mix? as far as compresson, reverb ect?? there tone is killer. Its probley the player..haha http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Could someone post a pic of how they think a 2 mic configuration should look.

Spruce
Mar-09-2005, 4:22pm
"Its probley the player..haha"

Uh-huh....

"Could someone post a pic of how they think a 2 mic configuration should look."

Here's one I like alot, pointed at where the neck meets the body on just about any mandolin, maybe 4" from the body:

>

But angle the mics so they are 90 degrees to each other....

mandopete
Mar-09-2005, 4:58pm
Hey Bruce - looks like the pic got hosed!

Spruce
Mar-09-2005, 5:24pm
That ain't no pic, that a: # # >

Why post a pic when a # #> # will do? # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I have a special mic mount (commonly available) that allows me to mount the mics so that they're barely not touching, and, as I said, angled at 90 degrees to one another...

For a huge sound, I usually pan the two tracks 9 and 3 o'clock, with possibly a third mic (usually a U87) 4 feet away panned dead center...

Check for phasing, etc.....

This is a great set-up for solo mandolin, or when you want to really highlight the mandolin in a sparse mix...

It tends to require too much "taming" if it's a mando in say, a typical bluegrass band recording, in which case I'll go with a single mic on all the instruments...

Milan Christi
Mar-10-2005, 12:39am
One set-up that I like is a small diaphram condenser pointed at the lower f hole or between the lower f hole and the tailpiece. Set up your large diaphram condenser out in front and above the mandolin pointed at the neck body joint.
Not trying to hijack the thread - just wanna tell ya that I tried this for about an hour last night and can see some serious potential here. Lots of variables that can be tweaked to taste. The MXL 603 is a bright mic but the 4033 out front seems to tame the shrillness as well as the throaty lower-mids. Nice tip!

Milan

jazzgtrl4
Mar-10-2005, 10:58am
Cool, ive been experimenting with moving the mics around ect..Do you ever use any effects on the mando? like a l;ittle comprssion? reverb? Also what kind of room do you guys record in?

Don Grieser
Mar-10-2005, 11:06am
The place you aim that small condenser really makes a difference. We aimed it at the wood above the lower f hole and back a little towards the tailpiece. If you solo that mic and move your mando around, you'll find a surprising variety of sounds back there. You'll want to do the same thing with the big condenser till you get the total sound you're looking for. I'm sure every mandolin will be a little different, as well as your mics and the sound of your room.

Don Grieser
Raising Cane
http://www.caneraising.com (http://caneraising.com)

Spruce
Mar-10-2005, 12:01pm
"Do you ever use any effects on the mando? #reverb?"

Reverb is a drug as addicting as rock cocaine or a morning cappicino, and should be treated as such...
That being said, it can certainly have it's uses...

Listen to your favorite recordings and see what the players you like use...

A trend these days is to go "dry", creating intimitacy....
That's what I try to do, but like I said, that 'verb is a strong drug and very tempting to use to pretty things up...

It can be fun to track with tons of 'verb to make you feel good (kinda like playing in a bathroom or a tunnel will), and then mix it dry in the final mix.
Check for accuracy when you listen back, 'cause 'verb can hide some serious problems....

Recordings have been ruined with reverb, IMHO...
"Into the Cauldron" was re-broadcast into a large space and re-recorded, giving it a sound not unlike classical recordings, which is what I'm sure they were going for....
It lost all immediacy and definition, IMO, but who am I to argue with those guys?

Listen to "Travellers" sometime for slathered-on 'verb...

I like a reverb setting on my Lexicon PCM80 called "Living Room", which does indeed sound like the instruments were recorded in a good living room....
Very very effective....

"like a l;ittle comprssion?"

I'm a compression junky, but for me compression and mandolins don't really mix...

Mandolin is all about dynamics with the strong peak at the pick, and fast decay...
I found that any compression screws up the things that make a mandolin a mandolin, so I tend to steer clear of it...

That being said, I use an old RCA BA6A compressor to give a pleasing tonal character to the mandolin or fiddle, but it's not really compressing or limiting all that much. #It's just running the signal through 80 lbs. of tubes and really fattening up the sound in a good way...

One of my secret weapons... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif